-
Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
- Thread starter hyeung
- Start date
Search for tools and product advice,
Discuss EV Charger Installation - Cabling Query? in the Electric Vehicles Advice Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
- Reaction score
- 2,756
Even if it was intended for inside use the installer should have installed it in such a way as itwas not able to charge with the vehicle outside.
Agree with Wilko only sure way is to TT the whole installation.
Agree with Wilko only sure way is to TT the whole installation.
- Reaction score
- 9,013
This is a case of technology moving on at a far greater rate than the relevant regulations that should oversee it.
I personally see very little difference to the following,
someone touching a car (on charge) and at the same time, ornate iron gate with good foundations
someone touching a car (on charge) and at the same time, a water pipe inside the garage
someone sat leaning against a well grounded metal fence whilst tinkering with there electric lawnmower
I would like too see all items used outside the house being fed from an ungrounded isolating transformer with rcd protection.
best of both worlds?
I personally see very little difference to the following,
someone touching a car (on charge) and at the same time, ornate iron gate with good foundations
someone touching a car (on charge) and at the same time, a water pipe inside the garage
someone sat leaning against a well grounded metal fence whilst tinkering with there electric lawnmower
I would like too see all items used outside the house being fed from an ungrounded isolating transformer with rcd protection.
best of both worlds?
- Reaction score
- 2,756
Other than the fact the car has four big rubber well insulated wheels.
- Reaction score
- 9,013
sorry, my post was a little misleading. I have edited it now.
Hahah the garage is "sorta" tidy, but only becos I've managed to stack things up on one side of the garage. The other side I use to park the car. In that photo I had to move all the sh*t to the other side.....so they could install the cabling/trunking and the charge unit.
I don't think i'm getting anywhere with this.
I don't understand why others are able to have their unit in the garage and charge inside and out...with the earth rod setup. Am I missing something? Is my installer just trying to put me off and keep what I've got.
I've emailed the Manufacturer to also confirm use-cases for both inside and outside charging.
Wish I knew all this before the install, as i'd ended up not getting the EO unit; and probably got something that didn't have any earth rod requirements i.e. Zappi or more pricy Andersen.
- Reaction score
- 5,615
I will never suggest someone goes against what the regulations state, especially a customer. However, I will refer you to my post #63. The facts from the report show that absolute worse case scenario (so in reality nowhere near this) you have a 1 in a million additional chance of risk of death or serious injury from using a car charger with PME earthing.
As a professional I have to say don’t use it outside, but if you decide to you have the risk explained above.
Yeah I downloaded that pdf...intresting indeed.
Can I ask, if you had TT earthing which makes it fine for outside. Can you not use this inside? What is the issue with that?
The odds/risk are so low, but never the less I wouldn't personally risk it - PME outside charge? Would you? Its more the thought that you are putting others at risk. With young kids in the family enough said...
- Reaction score
- 1,536
Regulation 722.411.4.1 unequivocally and unambiguously states that: "a PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors OR that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors ..... ". Ergo it is self-evident that the EV charger which has been installed adjacent to the entrance of the OP's garage could be reasonably expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors. All the OP need do to create this very scenario would be to park his/her car outwith the garage then connect the charging lead between his/her car and the charging point. Quod erat demonstrandum.
The OP stated in a previous post that he/she contacted the installer who advised him/her:
Whether or not the OP has any intention of charging his/her car outdoors is irrelevant. No provision has been made in regulation 722.411.4.1 for consideration of customers' wishes. What is of relevance, however, is that the regulation has not been complied with and has been breached by virtue of the fact that the installer has installed the charging point in a location where the point might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle parked outdoors. Quod erat demonstrandum.
The installer should have been aware of the inherent risks involved and acted accordingly by connecting an earth rod to the charging point therefore making this dedicated circuit a TT arrangement. The crucial point that I am making here is that locating an EV charging point indoors does not negate the need for an earth rod to be connected to the charger. That a charging point installed indoors can be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors necessitates a TT arrangement.
Subject to conditions (i), (ii) and (iii) of regulation 722.411.4.1 being satisfied, connection of an earth rod to a T-N-CS arrangement is permitted. However, we can immediately eliminate two of these conditions as plausible options. Since the OP's charging point is connected to a single-phase supply, condition (i) does not apply here. Given that it would be next to impossible to achieve the ultra-low Ra value that would be required to ensure that an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor supplying the installation does not exceed 70 volts rms, condition (ii) is a non-starter. But condition (iii) can be satisfied by installing a charger that does not require connection to an earth rod. The Pod Point Solo is one such charger.
While regulation 722.413.1.2 permits the use of a fixed isolating transformer that complies to BS EN 61558-2-4 as a means of providing electrical separation for one electric vehicle supplied from one unearthed source, Mr. Smith and Mrs. Jones are not going to incurr an additional cost of several hundreds of pounds for an isolating transformer to be installed in their meter cupboard, assuming they had the physical space to accommodate the bulky transformer there in the first place.
So ultimately there were but two realistic choices open to whoever installed the OP's charging point: either install a charger that does not require connection to an earth rod, or install at least one earth rod to the charging point so forming a TT earthing arrangement for that dedicated circuit. Since the charging point that was installed in the OP's garage was not a model that would comply with the requirements of 722.411.4.1 condition (iii), the installer by default should have installed an earth rod and made the the earthing arrangement for that dedicated circuit TT. Quod erat demonstrandum.
John Ward has produced an excellent and most informative video regarding the earthing arrangements for electric vehicle charging equipment. The segment between 10:25 and 11:09 explains the TT arrangements for a dedicated EV charging circuit. What JW says here is what I have been saying throughout this thread. So if I am wrong, then so too is JW. Is there anyone here who would like to step up to the plate and call him out along with the author of two articles that were published in Connections in June 2018 and in Professional Electrician in November 2018?
The installer of the OP's charging point also advised him/her:
The assumptions of the installer are inconsequential. The requirements of regulation 722.411.4.1 are unequivocal, unambiguous, and perfectly clear. Crystal is opaque by comparison. A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors OR that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors unless any one of the three conditions attached to that regulation can be satisfied.
The photographs below are of an install that I recently completed in the garage of a local car-hire company. The earthing system is T-N-CS. There was no need for any earth rods to be installed in this installation as all three charging points are located indoors and are located in such a manner that they could not ever be used to charge an electric vehicle located outdoors. If there had been even the slightest possibility of the client ever using any one of these chargers for outdoor charging, then rest assured that I would have connected each charger to an earth rod and undertaken a risk-assessment in accordance with section 6.8 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation and attached a written risk-assessment document to the Electrical Installation Certificate.
The company who installed the OP's charger come across as being reasonable and approachable, The photos that the OP posted of the install indicate that it has generally been carried-out to a high standard. My advice to the OP, for what it;s worth, would be to ask the company to come back and carry-out a risk assessment with a view to converting the dedicated circuit for the charging point to a TT arrangement.
An alternative solution would be for the charging point to be replaced with a Pod Point Solo. However, given that the install was part-funded by grants from OLEV and the Energy Savings Trust, there would almost certainly be complications. But as things stand, the charging point in its present state cannot be left as it is because it does not comply.
I wish the OP well and trust that a satisfactory outcome will ensue. Please keep us posted of developments.
And on that note, I shall now exit stage left. I've stated my case and will make no further contribution to this thread.
The OP stated in a previous post that he/she contacted the installer who advised him/her:
Whether or not the OP has any intention of charging his/her car outdoors is irrelevant. No provision has been made in regulation 722.411.4.1 for consideration of customers' wishes. What is of relevance, however, is that the regulation has not been complied with and has been breached by virtue of the fact that the installer has installed the charging point in a location where the point might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle parked outdoors. Quod erat demonstrandum.
The installer should have been aware of the inherent risks involved and acted accordingly by connecting an earth rod to the charging point therefore making this dedicated circuit a TT arrangement. The crucial point that I am making here is that locating an EV charging point indoors does not negate the need for an earth rod to be connected to the charger. That a charging point installed indoors can be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors necessitates a TT arrangement.
Subject to conditions (i), (ii) and (iii) of regulation 722.411.4.1 being satisfied, connection of an earth rod to a T-N-CS arrangement is permitted. However, we can immediately eliminate two of these conditions as plausible options. Since the OP's charging point is connected to a single-phase supply, condition (i) does not apply here. Given that it would be next to impossible to achieve the ultra-low Ra value that would be required to ensure that an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor supplying the installation does not exceed 70 volts rms, condition (ii) is a non-starter. But condition (iii) can be satisfied by installing a charger that does not require connection to an earth rod. The Pod Point Solo is one such charger.
While regulation 722.413.1.2 permits the use of a fixed isolating transformer that complies to BS EN 61558-2-4 as a means of providing electrical separation for one electric vehicle supplied from one unearthed source, Mr. Smith and Mrs. Jones are not going to incurr an additional cost of several hundreds of pounds for an isolating transformer to be installed in their meter cupboard, assuming they had the physical space to accommodate the bulky transformer there in the first place.
So ultimately there were but two realistic choices open to whoever installed the OP's charging point: either install a charger that does not require connection to an earth rod, or install at least one earth rod to the charging point so forming a TT earthing arrangement for that dedicated circuit. Since the charging point that was installed in the OP's garage was not a model that would comply with the requirements of 722.411.4.1 condition (iii), the installer by default should have installed an earth rod and made the the earthing arrangement for that dedicated circuit TT. Quod erat demonstrandum.
John Ward has produced an excellent and most informative video regarding the earthing arrangements for electric vehicle charging equipment. The segment between 10:25 and 11:09 explains the TT arrangements for a dedicated EV charging circuit. What JW says here is what I have been saying throughout this thread. So if I am wrong, then so too is JW. Is there anyone here who would like to step up to the plate and call him out along with the author of two articles that were published in Connections in June 2018 and in Professional Electrician in November 2018?
The installer of the OP's charging point also advised him/her:
The assumptions of the installer are inconsequential. The requirements of regulation 722.411.4.1 are unequivocal, unambiguous, and perfectly clear. Crystal is opaque by comparison. A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors OR that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors unless any one of the three conditions attached to that regulation can be satisfied.
The photographs below are of an install that I recently completed in the garage of a local car-hire company. The earthing system is T-N-CS. There was no need for any earth rods to be installed in this installation as all three charging points are located indoors and are located in such a manner that they could not ever be used to charge an electric vehicle located outdoors. If there had been even the slightest possibility of the client ever using any one of these chargers for outdoor charging, then rest assured that I would have connected each charger to an earth rod and undertaken a risk-assessment in accordance with section 6.8 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation and attached a written risk-assessment document to the Electrical Installation Certificate.
The company who installed the OP's charger come across as being reasonable and approachable, The photos that the OP posted of the install indicate that it has generally been carried-out to a high standard. My advice to the OP, for what it;s worth, would be to ask the company to come back and carry-out a risk assessment with a view to converting the dedicated circuit for the charging point to a TT arrangement.
An alternative solution would be for the charging point to be replaced with a Pod Point Solo. However, given that the install was part-funded by grants from OLEV and the Energy Savings Trust, there would almost certainly be complications. But as things stand, the charging point in its present state cannot be left as it is because it does not comply.
I wish the OP well and trust that a satisfactory outcome will ensue. Please keep us posted of developments.
And on that note, I shall now exit stage left. I've stated my case and will make no further contribution to this thread.
Last edited:
Assuming one was to connect to a TT setup for that new EV circuit.
With regards to the risk-assessment in accordance with section 6.8 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation....can I ask if there were any obvious issues shown in my recent photos of the garage area that would have highlighted a risk/problem?
Hence making this option of moving to a TT setup for the EV circuit not an applicable solution?
Apologies for my lack of understanding. But if there was the possibility of crossing PME earth with TT earth (ie TT setup indoor charger) Are my risk of hazard shocks still the same in the event of a supply fault (pen fault)?
With regards to the risk-assessment in accordance with section 6.8 of the Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation....can I ask if there were any obvious issues shown in my recent photos of the garage area that would have highlighted a risk/problem?
Hence making this option of moving to a TT setup for the EV circuit not an applicable solution?
Apologies for my lack of understanding. But if there was the possibility of crossing PME earth with TT earth (ie TT setup indoor charger) Are my risk of hazard shocks still the same in the event of a supply fault (pen fault)?
- Reaction score
- 10,616
From @JK-Electrical quotes;
"a PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors OR that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors ..... "
Would I be correct in thinking that most domestic garages fall into the remit of the latter?
"a PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors OR that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors ..... "
Would I be correct in thinking that most domestic garages fall into the remit of the latter?
- Reaction score
- 6,530
Because your charger is located indoors (by the sounds) it needs to be the same earthing system as the house, which I understand is TNCS. But this is prohibited by regulation if the charger can be used outdoors.
Just thinking out loud - if the charger in the garage was TT but the nearby beer fridge was on a house circuit and the supplier lost neutral fault occurred, you’d have the fridge door handle at a high V and the car at zero V. This would present a significant shock hazard that your house RCD could not disconnect and the car / charger would nicely keep itself connected to E via the rod.
If your whole house, garage and charger were all TT and the same supplier lost N fault occurred then you would have no power, but you would be safe as N and E remain separated. Safe to get beer and touch the car
.
Last edited:
Thanks for confirming the hazards on the other way ie indoor charger TT earth setup, and where such supply fault occurs. Touch the car would cause shock hazard.
With that in mind I understand the risk assessment that was mention (section 6.8 code of practice of EV equip installs) would identify these possible hazards if they exist? Ie items in reach...
So with than in mind, my previous question asked was there anything obvious that one could see In the photos of the garage that posted previously that would highlight these types of issue? I appreciate this is not an assessment but just to help me understand if there was anything there that sprung to mind as an issue?
With that in mind I understand the risk assessment that was mention (section 6.8 code of practice of EV equip installs) would identify these possible hazards if they exist? Ie items in reach...
So with than in mind, my previous question asked was there anything obvious that one could see In the photos of the garage that posted previously that would highlight these types of issue? I appreciate this is not an assessment but just to help me understand if there was anything there that sprung to mind as an issue?
- Reaction score
- 5,615
Hyeung, some of the posts above have mentioned TT. There are 2 different forms of this involved in the case of an electric vehicle charging point (EVCP). The case which is mainly being discussed is connecting an earth rod to the actual EVCP. This would be acceptable and meets the regulations. However, the regulations do not always take in to account practicality. There is absolutely no way this method will work for you as you would not need just one little earth rod, you would need multiple deep earth rods littered all around your garden, perhaps dozens, it would cost a fortune and is not practical.
The other option is to TT the entire garage, this is what I shall be doing for a customer soon (although now I am actually tempted to leave it as PME and suggest an EVCP that is suitable). However, their garage is 20m from the house so there is no chance of coming into contact with anything connected to the PME earth (e.g water pipes, gas pipes). With this form of TT only one earth rod will probably be needed.
With both options I think it unlikely you would get indoor charging as you have stated you have gas pipes in the garage. These will be simultaneously touchable with the car, thus introducing a potentially dangerous voltage (in the event of PEN break, ie a break in the neutral coming into your house).
The last option is to TT your whole house, you could then charge the car in or out of the garage without worry. However, this is really a step backwards with the earthing safety of your whole house as a PME earthing system is far better than a TT.
Realistically your options are as follows, if you want to meet the regulations and avoid the one in a million additional risk.
1. Change EVCP for one that can be used with PME.
2. Ask company to move EVCP further into garage so it cannot be used outside.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 16,728
- Reaction score
- 5,475
Yes, DPG, it is the future! But it is here, now!
OK, they want to ban diesel cars, and make it very expensive, especially in Inner London, wherever that hell may be...but the powers that be simply want to tax the private consumer, while the belching buses and lorries continue to pollute to a much higher degree.
Just try telling Eddie Stobart (!) to replace his entire fleet with electric vehicles, DPD, UPS, FedEx, every bus company...the average motorist was tempted, actually encouraged, to go diesel, a few years ago, and now we are being targeted as an easy revenue-point. Yes, i could change my diesel car for an electric one, but to get the same performance, with limited charging options, I would have to buy a Tesla...and i simply can't afford one. I could buy a petrol car, but still I will be targetted to go greener. No!
The private/light commercial guys are being asked to cough up (no pun intended) yet again, while the major polluting vehicles are ignored. Commerce depends on road transport by diesel trucks, buses, whatever...construction depends on diesel machinery, JCBs RBs, Drots, D8s, any amount of diesel-guzzling machinery, yet a tiny minority of road users are being hit with the mantra of "go green"...while certain countries continue to open coal-fire power stations at the rate of 100 a year. We are not the villains, we are the victims.
Thus, who better to hassle than the tax-paying individuals? We are easily identifiable, we cannot avoid the taxes, we have no "clout", we just have to pay up or shut up.
I have looked at EV technology. I have actually explored the possibility of buying an electric car, but the cost of installing a charging point at my home is enough to buy me a year's worth..no, 3 years' worth of diesel, and as a pensioner I have decided to stick with the technology I have. OK, the road tax is higher, but the "cost to change" is significant too. I'm fed up being dictated to, while other sectors are left alone.
I know I will be labelled as Can't Use New Technology (the acronym is clear) but until we tax cyclists too, and make them pay for insurance and road use, and impose number plates on them, I will simply continue to use my diesel car until the authorities tighten the emmission laws so much that my car will fail the MOT, no matter how efficient my car actually is...and that move is coming. Will they impose the same restrictions on commercial vehicles? Will they impose such laws on the big commercial operators that pay into the Party coffers? Will they simply pursue the wee people who try to make a living? You know the answer.
Getting rid of 1% of the problem of pollution is no result at all. Before any of you argue that it's 5%, or 10%...I don't care! It's a very small percentage, and insignificant in the fight against pollution. There are many worse offenders, but we are being persecuted...
Rant over!
for now...
and as the late, great Alistair Cooke, used to say after his radio broadcast "Letter From America"..."if you have been...thank you for listening"
OK, they want to ban diesel cars, and make it very expensive, especially in Inner London, wherever that hell may be...but the powers that be simply want to tax the private consumer, while the belching buses and lorries continue to pollute to a much higher degree.
Just try telling Eddie Stobart (!) to replace his entire fleet with electric vehicles, DPD, UPS, FedEx, every bus company...the average motorist was tempted, actually encouraged, to go diesel, a few years ago, and now we are being targeted as an easy revenue-point. Yes, i could change my diesel car for an electric one, but to get the same performance, with limited charging options, I would have to buy a Tesla...and i simply can't afford one. I could buy a petrol car, but still I will be targetted to go greener. No!
The private/light commercial guys are being asked to cough up (no pun intended) yet again, while the major polluting vehicles are ignored. Commerce depends on road transport by diesel trucks, buses, whatever...construction depends on diesel machinery, JCBs RBs, Drots, D8s, any amount of diesel-guzzling machinery, yet a tiny minority of road users are being hit with the mantra of "go green"...while certain countries continue to open coal-fire power stations at the rate of 100 a year. We are not the villains, we are the victims.
Thus, who better to hassle than the tax-paying individuals? We are easily identifiable, we cannot avoid the taxes, we have no "clout", we just have to pay up or shut up.
I have looked at EV technology. I have actually explored the possibility of buying an electric car, but the cost of installing a charging point at my home is enough to buy me a year's worth..no, 3 years' worth of diesel, and as a pensioner I have decided to stick with the technology I have. OK, the road tax is higher, but the "cost to change" is significant too. I'm fed up being dictated to, while other sectors are left alone.
I know I will be labelled as Can't Use New Technology (the acronym is clear) but until we tax cyclists too, and make them pay for insurance and road use, and impose number plates on them, I will simply continue to use my diesel car until the authorities tighten the emmission laws so much that my car will fail the MOT, no matter how efficient my car actually is...and that move is coming. Will they impose the same restrictions on commercial vehicles? Will they impose such laws on the big commercial operators that pay into the Party coffers? Will they simply pursue the wee people who try to make a living? You know the answer.
Getting rid of 1% of the problem of pollution is no result at all. Before any of you argue that it's 5%, or 10%...I don't care! It's a very small percentage, and insignificant in the fight against pollution. There are many worse offenders, but we are being persecuted...
Rant over!
for now...
and as the late, great Alistair Cooke, used to say after his radio broadcast "Letter From America"..."if you have been...thank you for listening"
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 10,616
It stinks though (one, two, three, four, five).
I wrote the EO and advised on my current install via PME earth; and also wanted to clarify their view if it would be possible to get something that would work for me i.e. both indoor and outside charging, whilst charger is located inside the garage.
Their response is below, and expected. It appears they also contacted the Installer which I did not expect. The Installer also replied to EO's response shown also below.
The Installer also contacted me over the phone, probably because he realised that I had got in touch with the supplier.
Unfortunately, there was no easy solution for my use-case, which I understand. He's view is that the recommended TT earthing would mean yes I can charge outside no problems, but because of the internal electrics within the garage (lights, sockets, boiler, gas pipes, and even garage door opener) these would all be utilising the PME earth and feels there would be a risk still i.e. if I have something plugged into the sockets I could still be at a risk of being in contact with PME earth and the TT earth (touching car whilst charging). So he doesn't feel the recommendations by EO are valid for me to satisfy my use-case of inside charging as well.
I think in a previous post I queried on the risks with my indoor garage setup when charging on a TT earth setup i.e. photos of my garage showing the sockets, pipes, boiler, garage opener, lights etc.
He did also mention options of change everything in the garage to be TT earth (but realises this would be a lot of work and not practical); also the use of a transformer (box of tricks), but at a high cost, and again its not economically viable.
We also talked about other charger such as the Zappi, which they fit and runs on PME earth and believe that would work for both inside and out. However, he never suggested that he could offer to switch to that for me...but understandably it would probably mean he'd take the hit on the existing EO charger (i.e. probably can't returned it).
We also talked about the location of my charger unit, and realises that maybe they shouldn't have installed it so close to the door. However, I did point out that as it is an untethered unit, even if you did move it to the front of the garage, one can still buy a 10m cable and it would still reach the outside of the garage.
So in the end there really was no solution for me to accommodate my indoor and outdoor charging use-cases. Short from buying another unit, which I cant!
What are your thoughts, should the installer be responsible in this case to get me something that's fit for purpose for me?
In terms of the install attension to detail, I couldn't fault them and were good. I do admit that I never mentioned details of where I would charge prior to the job; but did send them plans and locations of where I wanted the charge point (next to garage door inside). They never asked me where I intended to use it (i.e. inside only or inside and outside). I assumed I could use it for both, and equally I was unaware of such technical issues with the earthing, so did not realise this would be such a big issue until after the job.....
The installer also forwarded me the email he sent in response to EO shown below.
I also contacted EO after seeing the emails, and talked through things. Although EO's view is that the installer comes back to change the setup to TT earth, after I spoke to the chap and showed him my garage i.e. all the electrics - sockets, garage opener, lights, pipes and boiler. He agreed that with the TT earth setup, charging indoors would not be suitable. Hence, also thinks sticking to the existing PME earthing is probably be best route provided its only for indoor use.
So there you go. I think I'm now stuck with what I have? I don't see any other option but to accept the install as is, and consider only charging inside for now.
If we do get another EV, I guess I could get another charger for that (but this would definitely be one that can cater for both indoors and outdoors)….or simply install another charger purely for outdoors....so probably the latter.
I still wish the Installer could let me return and get another suitable unit which would be the next best route. But I doubt this is going to happen?
Any last thoughts on this?
So thanks to everyone's input and feedback over the last few days. Its certainly been educational for me! and i'm sure others have found it interesting It just unfortunate the way this planned out. But don't see any other solutions.
EO's response:
"Since the 1st of January 2019 the new (18th) edition of BS7671 has been in force, and any installations completed after this date would have to follow the below….
Regulation 722.411.4.1
A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors or that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors.
There then follows three addendums to work around this, which I’ve shortened…
Hope this helps"
Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.
Mr OP had requested a quotation for a charge point to be installed inside the garage and there was no mention of charging outside until the day of installation. We have reviewed our process and will ensure customers are aware that EO charge points installed inside are for use inside and charge points installed outside are for use outside.
With the tethered cable being 5 meters long it is not always practicable to install in a location that prevents the cable reaching an outdoor location, similarly when the charge point is installed on the external wall this is usually directly outside the garage door and this would allow the customer to charge inside the garage if they so decided, again we will ensure the regulations are made clear to all customers.
I would say that separating the charge point from the PME earth and connecting to a TT earth whilst installed inside the garage and the car charging inside the garage is not an option as there are other electrics connected to the PME earth with in the garage, the only option to achieve this would be to install an isolating transformer for the charge point, I have relayed this information to Mr OP.
I have emailed Mr OP today and will follow it up with the proposal to reposition the charge point further inside the garage if he wishes although we have clarified that the charge point is for indoor use only and await his instruction.
I can assure you that Mr OPs installation will be completed to his satisfaction and at no extra cost unless his requirements change.
I will keep you updated."
Their response is below, and expected. It appears they also contacted the Installer which I did not expect. The Installer also replied to EO's response shown also below.
The Installer also contacted me over the phone, probably because he realised that I had got in touch with the supplier.
Unfortunately, there was no easy solution for my use-case, which I understand. He's view is that the recommended TT earthing would mean yes I can charge outside no problems, but because of the internal electrics within the garage (lights, sockets, boiler, gas pipes, and even garage door opener) these would all be utilising the PME earth and feels there would be a risk still i.e. if I have something plugged into the sockets I could still be at a risk of being in contact with PME earth and the TT earth (touching car whilst charging). So he doesn't feel the recommendations by EO are valid for me to satisfy my use-case of inside charging as well.
I think in a previous post I queried on the risks with my indoor garage setup when charging on a TT earth setup i.e. photos of my garage showing the sockets, pipes, boiler, garage opener, lights etc.
He did also mention options of change everything in the garage to be TT earth (but realises this would be a lot of work and not practical); also the use of a transformer (box of tricks), but at a high cost, and again its not economically viable.
We also talked about other charger such as the Zappi, which they fit and runs on PME earth and believe that would work for both inside and out. However, he never suggested that he could offer to switch to that for me...but understandably it would probably mean he'd take the hit on the existing EO charger (i.e. probably can't returned it).
We also talked about the location of my charger unit, and realises that maybe they shouldn't have installed it so close to the door. However, I did point out that as it is an untethered unit, even if you did move it to the front of the garage, one can still buy a 10m cable and it would still reach the outside of the garage.
So in the end there really was no solution for me to accommodate my indoor and outdoor charging use-cases. Short from buying another unit, which I cant!
What are your thoughts, should the installer be responsible in this case to get me something that's fit for purpose for me?
In terms of the install attension to detail, I couldn't fault them and were good. I do admit that I never mentioned details of where I would charge prior to the job; but did send them plans and locations of where I wanted the charge point (next to garage door inside). They never asked me where I intended to use it (i.e. inside only or inside and outside). I assumed I could use it for both, and equally I was unaware of such technical issues with the earthing, so did not realise this would be such a big issue until after the job.....
The installer also forwarded me the email he sent in response to EO shown below.
I also contacted EO after seeing the emails, and talked through things. Although EO's view is that the installer comes back to change the setup to TT earth, after I spoke to the chap and showed him my garage i.e. all the electrics - sockets, garage opener, lights, pipes and boiler. He agreed that with the TT earth setup, charging indoors would not be suitable. Hence, also thinks sticking to the existing PME earthing is probably be best route provided its only for indoor use.
So there you go. I think I'm now stuck with what I have? I don't see any other option but to accept the install as is, and consider only charging inside for now.
If we do get another EV, I guess I could get another charger for that (but this would definitely be one that can cater for both indoors and outdoors)….or simply install another charger purely for outdoors....so probably the latter.
I still wish the Installer could let me return and get another suitable unit which would be the next best route. But I doubt this is going to happen?
Any last thoughts on this?
So thanks to everyone's input and feedback over the last few days. Its certainly been educational for me! and i'm sure others have found it interesting
It just unfortunate the way this planned out. But don't see any other solutions.EO's response:
"Since the 1st of January 2019 the new (18th) edition of BS7671 has been in force, and any installations completed after this date would have to follow the below….
Regulation 722.411.4.1
A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors or that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors.
There then follows three addendums to work around this, which I’ve shortened…
- Only applies to three phase installations
- The MET (Main Earthing Terminal) is connected to an earth electrode, with resistance suitable to allow touch voltage to remain below 70v in the issue of an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor. These resistances would be 3.14Ω for a 7.2kW charger, or 6.29Ω for a 3.6kW. (Extremely difficult to achieve such low readings)
- Protect the installation with a device which disconnects both live and protective conductors (live, neutral and earth) in the event of a fault – These devices are not currently capable of operating on a single-phase supply
Hope this helps"
Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.
Mr OP had requested a quotation for a charge point to be installed inside the garage and there was no mention of charging outside until the day of installation. We have reviewed our process and will ensure customers are aware that EO charge points installed inside are for use inside and charge points installed outside are for use outside.
With the tethered cable being 5 meters long it is not always practicable to install in a location that prevents the cable reaching an outdoor location, similarly when the charge point is installed on the external wall this is usually directly outside the garage door and this would allow the customer to charge inside the garage if they so decided, again we will ensure the regulations are made clear to all customers.
I would say that separating the charge point from the PME earth and connecting to a TT earth whilst installed inside the garage and the car charging inside the garage is not an option as there are other electrics connected to the PME earth with in the garage, the only option to achieve this would be to install an isolating transformer for the charge point, I have relayed this information to Mr OP.
I have emailed Mr OP today and will follow it up with the proposal to reposition the charge point further inside the garage if he wishes although we have clarified that the charge point is for indoor use only and await his instruction.
I can assure you that Mr OPs installation will be completed to his satisfaction and at no extra cost unless his requirements change.
I will keep you updated."
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 10,616
- Reaction score
- 5,475
This has been very interesting.
However, I look back and see our friend JK told it like it is right at the start.
Some may have been incredulous, some in denial, but it seems to me that the situation is much clearer now.
In 5 years' time, all will have changed, but for now we are stuck with it. next, we will have plug-in chargers that are simply a separate circuit, a dedicated radial to a unit that takes care of all the hassle...and at that point...
I will still be driving my diesel car!
However, I look back and see our friend JK told it like it is right at the start.
Some may have been incredulous, some in denial, but it seems to me that the situation is much clearer now.
In 5 years' time, all will have changed, but for now we are stuck with it. next, we will have plug-in chargers that are simply a separate circuit, a dedicated radial to a unit that takes care of all the hassle...and at that point...
I will still be driving my diesel car!
- Reaction score
- 5,615
I think the decision of what to do next is a non electrical one hyeung and therefore up to you. The installers sound professional and decent, however they did make an error. Perhaps as a compromise you could discuss paying some of it depending on what the next step is. They sound open to sensible communication.I wrote the EO and advised on my current install via PME earth; and also wanted to clarify their view if it would be possible to get something that would work for me i.e. both indoor and outside charging, whilst charger is located inside the garage.
Their response is below, and expected. It appears they also contacted the Installer which I did not expect. The Installer also replied to EO's response shown also below.
The Installer also contacted me over the phone, probably because he realised that I had got in touch with the supplier.
Unfortunately, there was no easy solution for my use-case, which I understand. He's view is that the recommended TT earthing would mean yes I can charge outside no problems, but because of the internal electrics within the garage (lights, sockets, boiler, gas pipes, and even garage door opener) these would all be utilising the PME earth and feels there would be a risk still i.e. if I have something plugged into the sockets I could still be at a risk of being in contact with PME earth and the TT earth (touching car whilst charging). So he doesn't feel the recommendations by EO are valid for me to satisfy my use-case of inside charging as well.
I think in a previous post I queried on the risks with my indoor garage setup when charging on a TT earth setup i.e. photos of my garage showing the sockets, pipes, boiler, garage opener, lights etc.
He did also mention options of change everything in the garage to be TT earth (but realises this would be a lot of work and not practical); also the use of a transformer (box of tricks), but at a high cost, and again its not economically viable.
We also talked about other charger such as the Zappi, which they fit and runs on PME earth and believe that would work for both inside and out. However, he never suggested that he could offer to switch to that for me...but understandably it would probably mean he'd take the hit on the existing EO charger (i.e. probably can't returned it).
We also talked about the location of my charger unit, and realises that maybe they shouldn't have installed it so close to the door. However, I did point out that as it is an untethered unit, even if you did move it to the front of the garage, one can still buy a 10m cable and it would still reach the outside of the garage.
So in the end there really was no solution for me to accommodate my indoor and outdoor charging use-cases. Short from buying another unit, which I cant!
What are your thoughts, should the installer be responsible in this case to get me something that's fit for purpose for me?
In terms of the install attension to detail, I couldn't fault them and were good. I do admit that I never mentioned details of where I would charge prior to the job; but did send them plans and locations of where I wanted the charge point (next to garage door inside). They never asked me where I intended to use it (i.e. inside only or inside and outside). I assumed I could use it for both, and equally I was unaware of such technical issues with the earthing, so did not realise this would be such a big issue until after the job.....
The installer also forwarded me the email he sent in response to EO shown below.
I also contacted EO after seeing the emails, and talked through things. Although EO's view is that the installer comes back to change the setup to TT earth, after I spoke to the chap and showed him my garage i.e. all the electrics - sockets, garage opener, lights, pipes and boiler. He agreed that with the TT earth setup, charging indoors would not be suitable. Hence, also thinks sticking to the existing PME earthing is probably be best route provided its only for indoor use.
So there you go. I think I'm now stuck with what I have? I don't see any other option but to accept the install as is, and consider only charging inside for now.
If we do get another EV, I guess I could get another charger for that (but this would definitely be one that can cater for both indoors and outdoors)….or simply install another charger purely for outdoors....so probably the latter.
I still wish the Installer could let me return and get another suitable unit which would be the next best route. But I doubt this is going to happen?
Any last thoughts on this?
So thanks to everyone's input and feedback over the last few days. Its certainly been educational for me! and i'm sure others have found it interesting
EO's response:
"Since the 1st of January 2019 the new (18th) edition of BS7671 has been in force, and any installations completed after this date would have to follow the below….
Regulation 722.411.4.1
A PME earthing facility shall not be used as the means of earthing for the protective conductor contact of a charging point located outdoors or that might reasonably be expected to be used to charge a vehicle located outdoors.
There then follows three addendums to work around this, which I’ve shortened…
Therefore the only realistic option would be to ensure the charger is electrically separate from the earth provided by the incoming TN-C-S/PME, and the only way to do this at present is to install an earth rod locally to the charger so it is given its own TT earthing system. As this charger has been installed close to the door of a garage, it can reasonably be expected to charge a vehicle located outdoors; so provided it was installed after 01/01/19, (which is certain as the installed product wasn’t released until July 2019) it should already be separated from the PME and an earth rod installed. The original installer would need to rectify this – Any OLEV registered installer should be expected to be aware of this requirement and therefore should have allowed for it during the original install. This installation is not currently compliant, and the works to resolve this need to be completed without additional costs to the customer.
- Only applies to three phase installations
- The MET (Main Earthing Terminal) is connected to an earth electrode, with resistance suitable to allow touch voltage to remain below 70v in the issue of an open-circuit fault in the PEN conductor. These resistances would be 3.14Ω for a 7.2kW charger, or 6.29Ω for a 3.6kW. (Extremely difficult to achieve such low readings)
- Protect the installation with a device which disconnects both live and protective conductors (live, neutral and earth) in the event of a fault – These devices are not currently capable of operating on a single-phase supply
Hope this helps"
Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.
Mr OP had requested a quotation for a charge point to be installed inside the garage and there was no mention of charging outside until the day of installation. We have reviewed our process and will ensure customers are aware that EO charge points installed inside are for use inside and charge points installed outside are for use outside.
With the tethered cable being 5 meters long it is not always practicable to install in a location that prevents the cable reaching an outdoor location, similarly when the charge point is installed on the external wall this is usually directly outside the garage door and this would allow the customer to charge inside the garage if they so decided, again we will ensure the regulations are made clear to all customers.
I would say that separating the charge point from the PME earth and connecting to a TT earth whilst installed inside the garage and the car charging inside the garage is not an option as there are other electrics connected to the PME earth with in the garage, the only option to achieve this would be to install an isolating transformer for the charge point, I have relayed this information to Mr OP.
I have emailed Mr OP today and will follow it up with the proposal to reposition the charge point further inside the garage if he wishes although we have clarified that the charge point is for indoor use only and await his instruction.
I can assure you that Mr OPs installation will be completed to his satisfaction and at no extra cost unless his requirements change.
I will keep you updated."
Good luck and try and enjoy your new electric car, it's not the end of the world if you have to charge it only inside.
- Reaction score
- 5,475
Yes, good point, happy hippy dad!
If you go to, say, Abington services, on the M74, you have two choices...
use the free Tesla charging points (if you have a tesla) there are 5 or 6 of them...
or use the other one...yes, 1.
I have never seen anyone use these.
still, if you have an electric car, do enjoy it...I am sure it will be a way forward.
Just to ask one final question...
I am not allowed to ride a Segway on the public roads...(in most of the rest of Europe, as we currently know it, I can...)
So how come Maisie the 80 year old, partially deaf and blind lady, can race her motability electric scooter down the pedestrian precinct, silently zooming up behind me, without a licence or tax, and without taking a proper driving test?
Clearly, I need to get one!
If you go to, say, Abington services, on the M74, you have two choices...
use the free Tesla charging points (if you have a tesla) there are 5 or 6 of them...
or use the other one...yes, 1.
I have never seen anyone use these.
still, if you have an electric car, do enjoy it...I am sure it will be a way forward.
Just to ask one final question...
I am not allowed to ride a Segway on the public roads...(in most of the rest of Europe, as we currently know it, I can...)
So how come Maisie the 80 year old, partially deaf and blind lady, can race her motability electric scooter down the pedestrian precinct, silently zooming up behind me, without a licence or tax, and without taking a proper driving test?
Clearly, I need to get one!
- Reaction score
- 2,756
Installers Response:
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.”
That says it all.
There is no “possibly we should have”.
“Requested by the customer”
If I installed a new lighting circuit and the customer requested I not fit an RCD I would not take the customers request. I would explain the regulations and either fit it as part of the job or not do it. Simple.
"We have been liaising with the customer on this matter, we have installed the charge point closer to the garage door than possibly we should have although this was requested by the customer and is in alignment with the charging port on the car.”
That says it all.
There is no “possibly we should have”.
“Requested by the customer”
If I installed a new lighting circuit and the customer requested I not fit an RCD I would not take the customers request. I would explain the regulations and either fit it as part of the job or not do it. Simple.
- Reaction score
- 4,350
There are some products which will detect a loss of neutral eg: See page 142 of:
And Solatek make this device which one could use to power a DOL contactor which supplied the power to the EV charger:
www.sollatek.com
And then there are some makes of active RCDs which will trip on loss of neutral.
Food for thought.....
And Solatek make this device which one could use to power a DOL contactor which supplied the power to the EV charger:
AVS30 - Max 30amps Voltage Protection - Sollatek
AVS30 - Complete power protection device combining over voltage, under voltage, powerback surges/spikes protection.
www.sollatek.com
And then there are some makes of active RCDs which will trip on loss of neutral.
Food for thought.....
Ok just an update on the issue....as I've had pretty good progress as of today. The installer called me today, and the outcome was that he's going to swap the charger unit for me. The options of getting the new zappi v2 charger which works with PME earth without the need of an Earth rod.. -
EV Charger | Low Cost Home Electric Car Charging
Get a fully installed zappi home EV charger, featuring low cost energy tariff integration and solar charging, all proudly made in Britain.
myenergi.com
The key thing is that the new charging unit connects to PME earth and can detect the PEN conductor loss faults. So can be used both inside and outside. RESULT!!
The only thing is that the unit is gonna cost an extra £100. But happy with this, as it gives me what I want....
As its a new development, they are anticipating stock toward the end of the month, so should get this installed in place of the EO unit. Seems to be full of features which support Solar etc.
There is an additional hub that needs to be connected to the router, and a CT clamp that they attached to the mains (at the meter) and the other end routed to the charging unit (for realtime consumption etc).
So i think all ends well? Got there in the end somehow! unforunate that with the initial path, but can't be helped.
Will update once i get the install
And car arriving next week!
Once again, thanks for everyone's comments and feedback. I wouldn't have got to such a positive outcome without the help from this forum!!
Cheers.
- Reaction score
- 5,615
Perfect ending hyeung, i'm happy for you.Ok just an update on the issue....as I've had pretty good progress as of today. The installer called me today, and the outcome was that he's going to swap the charger unit for me. The options of getting the new zappi v2 charger which works with PME earth without the need of an Earth rod.. -
EV Charger | Low Cost Home Electric Car Charging
Get a fully installed zappi home EV charger, featuring low cost energy tariff integration and solar charging, all proudly made in Britain.
The key thing is that the new charging unit connects to PME earth and can detect the PEN conductor loss faults. So can be used both inside and outside. RESULT!!
The only thing is that the unit is gonna cost an extra £100. But happy with this, as it gives me what I want....
As its a new development, they are anticipating stock toward the end of the month, so should get this installed in place of the EO unit. Seems to be full of features which support Solar etc.
There is an additional hub that needs to be connected to the router, and a CT clamp that they attached to the mains (at the meter) and the other end routed to the charging unit (for realtime consumption etc).
So i think all ends well? Got there in the end somehow! unforunate that with the initial path, but can't be helped.
Will update once i get the install
And car arriving next week!
Once again, thanks for everyone's comments and feedback. I wouldn't have got to such a positive outcome without the help from this forum!!
Cheers.
I'd stick with those electricians for any future work if I was you.
- Reaction score
- 5,615
Also thanks to @JK-Electrical, I've learnt alot from all your threads and video clips. I've even got this thread copied now for future reference!
- Reaction score
- 5,173
Give it 12 months this isnt going to be an issue as the new generation of chargers such as the podpoint solo are now coming out which can be used on a PME supply with no rod required. uses a mix of DC monitoring and a mains tails clamp to assess loads etc..
Don’t need to wait 12 months, the new Zappi already handles it on pme..
- Reaction score
- 1
Why is two earth cables going straight to charger? The other one should be going to your MET in the fuse board!
Why is both earth cables going into your ev charger? The other should be going to your Wylex consumer unit!!
- Reaction score
- 16,728
I think one earth does go to the Wylex board - behind the tails.
Mind you it was 4 years ago so let's hope so!
Reply to EV Charger Installation - Cabling Query? in the Electric Vehicles Advice Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
Similar Threads
I have a client who wants an EV charger installed, charger TBC, but about 7KW, installed about 20m away from this installation.
I've not done one...
I am an NICEIC contractor but I have never installed an Electric vehicle charger. I have watched all of the relevant NICEIC webinars (The wire) on...
Evening all,
I have a little conundrum I need to get resolved.
I’ve moved an EV charger from a single phase board that was on a 40a breaker and...
Hi all,
Merry Christmas to everyone, and apologies for talking work during the holidays😅
I have my first EV charger install job early in the New...
I note that in answer to another EV Charger question a member suggested a 40A breaker would be preferred to a 32A because of many hours at...
OFFICIAL SPONSORS
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
YOUR Unread Posts
-
Good Morning Thread - Come say good morning, tell us what you've got on today. :)Oh that house is AMAZING!!! Have you been inside? Has it got massive chandeliers? I would hate...- Latest: Lou
-
-
Neutral PoleElectricity doesn’t care if the load is a single star connected device or 3 separate loads...
- Latest: James
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.