EICR codes when RECENT works don't comply!?

Octopus · Mar 15, 2018

spinlondon said:
Another thing to consider: There is no requirement to provide RCD protection for cables concealed in walls.
It is just an option.

Not 100% sure I agree with this.

So from the 18th does that mean we don't have to provide RCD's for socket circuit but we will have to for lighting circuits?

Wilko · Mar 15, 2018

spinlondon said:
Yes it requires RCD protection for sockets (that are not intended for specific items of equipment) and for mobile equipment used outdoors.
There is no longer a requirement to protect sockets that could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors.

Sorry, but I'm feeling a little lost

Hopefully the generality of the first sentence covers the loss of specificity of the second?

Andy78 · Mar 15, 2018

S P said:
Andy I always hear we can't condemn an installation that conforms to the standards at the time of installation but we are talking about an install that didn't confirm to the increased safety at the time. I get what you're saying "Why is something classed as more dangerous for the same issue because of a different installation date ?" But then why were the news regs bought into place?

What are you using to verify the age of install ? If it's the customer's word then you can assume nothing. You have already said there is no paperwork.

What do you mean you can't condemn an install that complied at the time it was installed ? There are plenty of old practices and methods that are considered dangerous and should be coded. How the heck are you to verify the exact age of every install you inspect and whether it complied or not ? Do you carry round a copy of every single version of the wiring regs ?

My point is that if an issue is dangerous or not dangerous it does not matter when it was installed. It doesn't become more or less dangerous because of the presence or absence of a bit of paper.

Octopus · Mar 15, 2018

What is the purpose of the EICR?

Is the customer trying to get a completion certificate off the council?

PEG · Mar 15, 2018

Finally,Andy got it

The purpose of an EICR is not to carbon date,or time-team or do a character assassination on a previous installer...it is to assess,at that time,the condition of the electrical installation,and report.

As stated many times,two identical installation issues,could bring about different codes,or no code,in separate properties.

That is down to the opinion and judgement,of the inspector.

S P · Mar 15, 2018

Spin, you said in a previous post:
EICR- Are Rcd's necessary ? - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/eicr-are-rcds-necessary.108681/

""The socket may well be used for the mower.
However the mower may have an RCD plug, or may be used with a plug in RCD adapter.
The socket (unless it is intended for a specific item of equipment) fails to comply with current Regulations, as it has no RCD protection. To then make a further observation based on the fact that it fails to comply with something that is no longer a requirement of the Regulations, would mean that you are not conducting the inspection, in accordance with the requirements of BS7671.

If it is the case, that at the time of design/construction of the installation, the requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors was in force, then you have an installation which has never complied with the requirements of BS7671.
As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.
This would mean that a code C2 would be applicable for all general use sockets, cables concealed in walls, circuits of locations containing baths or showers, etc.""

S P · Mar 15, 2018

Murdoch said:
What is the purpose of the EICR?

Is the customer trying to get a completion certificate off the council?

Customer is looking to purchase the home

PEG said:
Finally,Andy got it The purpose of an EICR is not to carbon date,or time-team or do a character assassination on a previous installer...it is to assess,at that time,the condition of the electrical installation,and report.

As stated many times,two identical installation issues,could bring about different codes,or no code,in separate properties.

That is down to the opinion and judgement,of the inspector.

I don't want to do that unnecessarily, this is why I'm asking for your opinions

There are also other issues like:

1.Sockets installed behind built in appliances with no isolation
2.Oven circuit - no isolator + hob ignitor wired direct to connection outlet
3.Main bond to water before stop cock - then plastic inline connector - no continuity present past the break, no supplementary bonding in bathrooms. (No code as it's now not an extraneous conductive part?)
4.Main bond to Gas not connected
5. IP top of CU, finger easy

westward10 · Mar 15, 2018

You need to state facts and not worry about the whys and whens of any additions or alterations. Me personally I would reinstate the main protective bonds.

S P · Mar 15, 2018

Deleted member 26818 · Mar 15, 2018

Wilko said:
Sorry, but I'm feeling a little lost
Hopefully the generality of the first sentence covers the loss of specificity of the second?

It’s quite simple.
The requirement now, is for all sockets (except those for specific items of equipment) to be provided with RCD protection.
If you have a situation where there are sockets without RCD protection, you make an observation and code appropriately.
You don’t then add another observation because some of those sockets might be used for equipment outdoors, as there is no longer a requirement that specifies sockets used to supply equipment outdoors require RCD protection.
Mobile equipment used outdoors is required to be RCD protected.
That could be by means of an RCD socket, an RCD FCU, an RCD plug or an RCD plug in adapter.

Deleted member 26818 · Mar 15, 2018

S P said:
Spin, you said in a previous post:
EICR- Are Rcd's necessary ? - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/eicr-are-rcds-necessary.108681/

""The socket may well be used for the mower.
However the mower may have an RCD plug, or may be used with a plug in RCD adapter.
The socket (unless it is intended for a specific item of equipment) fails to comply with current Regulations, as it has no RCD protection. To then make a further observation based on the fact that it fails to comply with something that is no longer a requirement of the Regulations, would mean that you are not conducting the inspection, in accordance with the requirements of BS7671.

If it is the case, that at the time of design/construction of the installation, the requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors was in force, then you have an installation which has never complied with the requirements of BS7671.
As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.
This would mean that a code C2 would be applicable for all general use sockets, cables concealed in walls, circuits of locations containing baths or showers, etc.""

Yes, I believe the let out clause for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction would not apply to an installation which has never complied.
However, I would not be making an observation and applying a code about a non-compliance with a 16th edition Regulation that is no longer in use.

Baker1988 · Mar 15, 2018

spinlondon said:
It’s quite simple.
The requirement now, is for all sockets (except those for specific items of equipment) to be provided with RCD protection.
If you have a situation where there are sockets without RCD protection, you make an observation and code appropriately.
You don’t then add another observation because some of those sockets might be used for equipment outdoors, as there is no longer a requirement that specifies sockets used to supply equipment outdoors require RCD protection.
Mobile equipment used outdoors is required to be RCD protected.
That could be by means of an RCD socket, an RCD FCU, an RCD plug or an RCD plug in adapter.

I am not going off a previous reg to be honest i didnt even know the reg existed i am going off what i think would be a resonable assumption if i see sockets without near a back window or door or somewhere like that and there is a electric lawn mower in the back yard i am going to resonably assume it would be plugged into the socket if however i see a rcd extention lead or something like that then i would not code it a C2.

Lets just agree to disagree my experiance is more than likely alot less than you seen as i have only been qualified a couple years but thats just my interpritation of bs7671 thata what i would code.

PEG · Mar 16, 2018

S P said:
Customer is looking to purchase the home

I don't want to do that unnecessarily, this is why I'm asking for your opinions

There are also other issues like:

1.Sockets installed behind built in appliances with no isolation
2.Oven circuit - no isolator + hob ignitor wired direct to connection outlet
3.Main bond to water before stop cock - then plastic inline connector - no continuity present past the break, no supplementary bonding in bathrooms. (No code as it's now not an extraneous conductive part?)
4.Main bond to Gas not connected
5. IP top of CU, finger easy

....There are sooo many ways,we could go,with that one...

MFS Electrical · Apr 23, 2018

spinlondon said:
Problem here, is that there is no longer a requirement to provide RCD protection for sockets that might be used to supply equipment outdoors.
Would it be right to make an observation and apply a code for a non-compliance with a requirement from an earlier edition?

But it still doesn’t comply with current regs so would be a C3 because that requirement was removed when they changed to the requirement for all socket outlets not exceeding 20a to be RCD protected
Changes to requirements for RCD protection of socket-outlets - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/54/changes-to-requirements-for-rcd-protection-of-socket-outlets/

EICR codes when RECENT works don't comply!?

Octopus

Wilko

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Andy78

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Octopus

PEG

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S P

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S P

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westward10

S P

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Deleted member 26818

Deleted member 26818

Baker1988

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PEG

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MFS Electrical

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