How to send data signal from master socket to extension socket?

simon77 · Nov 2, 2018

Hi,

Apologies if a lot of this is pretty obvious, but my knowledge is fairly limited.

We just had a Master Socket 5c MK 4 fitted (downstairs) and unknown to us at the time it has filtered out the data signal to the extension socket (upstairs), where the router was previously connected to and we would like to be connected again.

On the master socket an orange and white wire plug into the A and B connections and a green and black wire go into the 2 and 5 connections (as shown in the photo below). I believe this green and black wire pair brings the phone signal to the extension socket (although am not entirely certain how it works)? Note that all the wires mentioned come through the drop cable (there is unconnected red, blue, grey and brown wire).

[ElectriciansForums.net] How to send data signal from master socket to extension socket?

I also read that the A and B connection on the back of the faceplate is a data connection. As shown at the bottom of this pdf: https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/helpandsupport/how-toguides/howtoguides/downloads/NTE5C_Instructions_CP.pdf

We don't want a phone signal in the extension socket, just a data signal for the broadband. Is it possible to swap the green and black wires from 2 and 5 to the A and B connections on the back of the faceplate and send data to the extension socket instead?
(I believe this is what this website is talking about doing? htps://www.telecomgreen.co.uk/engineering/move-bt-master-socket-without-actually-moving-advice-telephone-engineer/)

If it is applicable, the upstairs extension socket has older wiring, which I believe is as listed below:

Pin 2 is A (blue)
Pin 5 is B (orange)

Pin 3 is Bell wire (green)
Pin 4 is Earth wire (brown)

If moving the green and black wires in the master socket to the data connection on the back of the faceplate will carry the data signal to the extension will the extension socket need to be updated to a new one with a separate data socket? Or will the existing extension socket work, with or without a micro filter connecting to it?

Thanks a lot for your help.
Simon

rsgaz · Nov 3, 2018

You know you have to click the Mk4 faceplate back in each time before testing it upstairs, right?!

When you say it didn't work, you mean the router or did you try just the normal phone in the extension first?

simon77 · Nov 3, 2018

rsgaz said:
You know you have to click the Mk4 faceplate back in each time before testing it upstairs, right?!

When you say it didn't work, you mean the router or did you try just the normal phone in the extension first?

Yep, put the faceplate back on!

After I'd swapped the green and black wires into A and B I was trying the router.

rsgaz · Nov 3, 2018

Try a phone and see what happens.

simon77 · Nov 3, 2018

rsgaz said:
Try a phone and see what happens.

I did and it doesn't work.

Is it because the A and B signal coming from the back of the faceplate is filtered? Would I have to connect it to an RJ11/RJ45 data socket instead of the standard phone socket that's currently there?

Or shouldn't that be an issue?

Or perhaps the wiring in the extension socket needs correcting? Although as I said the phone works (prior to swapping the wires in the master) and I was using the router there prior to having the new master socket fitted.

rsgaz · Nov 3, 2018

simon77 said:
Is it because the A and B signal coming from the back of the faceplate is filtered?

No, what comes out of 2&5 on the 5C is the filtered signal for phones only. What comes out of A&B on the Mk4 (Not the 5C) is unfiltered, so it's still both broadband and phone signal.

simon77 said:
Would I have to connect it to an RJ11/RJ45 data socket instead of the standard phone socket that's currently there?

No, wouldn't make any difference.

Can you test for volts DC across pins 2 & 5 upstairs? You should see about 48 volts.

This is how it's supposed to work, here is a bench power supply connected to a 5C master socket. Bottom right is the extension socket (inline version, works exactly the same as a slave socket though). Bottom left is a test LED, green for 'OK', red if the polarity is wrong.

Phone works in the Mk4 faceplate...

Phone also works in the extension...

If you get no joy with the voltage upstairs, then you're probably going to have to trace the wiring along the route and find out where and why your wires change colour. Something's clearly not right.

It'll end up being quicker and easier to just run some external CW1308 cable from downstairs to up and totally bypass the odd wiring done by the previous owner.

simon77 · Nov 3, 2018

rsgaz said:
Can you test for volts DC across pins 2 & 5 upstairs? You should see about 48 volts.

Hey,
I've got a digital multimeter (this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Electric...MS8233D-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/B076B3H7N1), but it's been a while since I've used it.

Are there any safety precautions I need to take (disconnect anything, turn anything off, not touch anything with the probes)?

And do I just hold the probes to the 2 and 5 pins? Does it matter which way round they are?

Apologies for my lack of knowledge!

Thanks.

rsgaz · Nov 3, 2018

simon77 said:
Are there any safety precautions I need to take (disconnect anything, turn anything off, not touch anything with the probes)?

Not really, no. It's extra low voltage. It's a live test you need to do to be able to measure it.

simon77 said:
And do I just hold the probes to the 2 and 5 pins? Does it matter which way round they are?

Yes, just press your probes against the metal contacts on the back where the wires are. It doesn't really matter which way, it'll either read +48 or minus 48v if there is voltage present.

simon77 · Nov 3, 2018

rsgaz said:
Yes, just press your probes against the metal contacts on the back where the wires are. It doesn't really matter which way, it'll either read +48 or minus 48v if there is voltage present.

I put the green and black wire back into the 2 and 5 connection on the master socket faceplate and the extension 2 and 5 wires read 50.8V exactly.

When I put the green and black wires into the A and B on the faceplate the voltage on the extension 2 and 5 wires fluctuates a lot. It seems to mostly go up and down between about 15V and 25V, but also goes up to 40+V. It's not constant at all though.

Not sure what that means?

simon77 · Nov 3, 2018

Would removing the ring wire (the green wire in terminal 3 I think?) make a difference (as mentioned below)? Or am I best to leave it where it is?

"Why remove the ring wire?

Unfortunately, the ring wire can also act as an antenna, picking up interference from other electrical equipment in and around the house.

It is often found that disconnecting the ring wire improves the stability of a connection, sometimes considerably, especially on "star" wired telephone systems."
::. Kitz - Improve your adsl connection speed .:: - https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

Squid · Nov 3, 2018

Use wireless.

rsgaz · Nov 4, 2018

simon77 said:
It seems to mostly go up and down between about 15V and 25V
Not sure what that means?

I'd say that means the Mk4 clip-on plate is fuggered!!

simon77 said:
Would removing the ring wire (the green wire in terminal 3 I think?) make a difference

Whilst that may improve working broadband by a tiny fraction, yours isn't working at all yet. It shouldn't cause a total loss.

I just did an experiment for you. Incoming line(blue pair), no master socket at all, just a pure line measurement, 50.55v...

Secondly, 5C master and Mk4 plate, extension added through "2&5", same result...

And finally, extension added via "A & B" on the Mk4 plate. Still the same result, 50.55v...

rsgaz · Nov 4, 2018

Do you have a krone tool and some offcuts of wire to experiment with? (cw1308 or cat5e wire, solid not stranded)

It would be very worthwhile bringing the extension socket downstairs and connecting it to "A & B" using a short piece of test wire.

This will bypass your 'odd' extension wiring, so if this works with the router in the extension socket, then you know the wiring from down to upstairs is the problem (despite you getting 50.8v upstairs, and despite it previously working, there could still be other factors at play here)

If you try this and it still doesn't work, then replace the Mk4 faceplate. There is an extremely tiny possibility that the 5C master could be the problem, but all signs are pointing toward the Mk4 at the moment.

simon77 · Nov 4, 2018

rsgaz said:
Do you have a krone tool and some offcuts of wire to experiment with? (cw1308 or cat5e wire, solid not stranded)

It would be very worthwhile bringing the extension socket downstairs and connecting it to "A & B" using a short piece of test wire.

This will bypass your 'odd' extension wiring, so if this works with the router in the extension socket, then you know the wiring from down to upstairs is the problem (despite you getting 50.8v upstairs, and despite it previously working, there could still be other factors at play here)

If you try this and it still doesn't work, then replace the Mk4 faceplate. There is an extremely tiny possibility that the 5C master could be the problem, but all signs are pointing toward the Mk4 at the moment.

Thanks so much for doing that test. Good to know that connecting to A&B on the MK4 faceplate should be getting the same voltage read out on the extension.

As you say, it seems more likely that it'd be the A&B connection on the MK4 faceplate as opposed to the odd wiring, as the 2&5 connection send the signal to the extension and the extension previously received the phone and broadband signal before the Master Socket 5c MK4 faceplate was installed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a krone tool or any wiring to test the A&B directly right now. I'll look into either buying some or perhaps go out on a limb and just buy the MK4 faceplate, which I've seen for about £10.

Thank you very much for all of your help with this. It's been incredibly useful and much easier to follow than any websites etc. I've been reading. Plus I've learnt a lot.

Cheers!!

rsgaz · Nov 4, 2018

One additional point, I'd be a bit concerned by the corrosion on the pins inside the extension socket...

Not saying it's related to your issue, because your phone worked up there and measuring the fluctuating voltage was done in the IDC slots, not touching these.

BUT...

When you get the router working upstairs, if you get poor download speeds compared to before, or a connection that drops out now and then, it would certainly be worth swapping it for a new one. As you can see, it's pins 2 and 5 that are the worst and they're the only two that it uses! That could easily cause a high resistance joint and cause speed issues.

simon77 · Nov 4, 2018

rsgaz said:
One additional point, I'd be a bit concerned by the corrosion on the pins inside the extension socket...

View attachment 45467

Not saying it's related to your issue, because your phone worked up there and measuring the fluctuating voltage was done in the IDC slots, not touching these.

BUT...

When you get the router working upstairs, if you get poor download speeds compared to before, or a connection that drops out now and then, it would certainly be worth swapping it for a new one. As you can see, it's pins 2 and 5 that are the worst and they're the only two that it uses! That could easily cause a high resistance joint and cause speed issues.

Yeah, that doesn't look too good!

I'll bear it in mind. Perhaps I'll look at changing it for a RJ11/RJ45 data socket anyway, seeing as it won't be used for a phone at all.

Thanks again!