can anyone correct me if I’m wrong. If it’s a rented accommodation do the smoke detectors/monoxide need to be hard wired in relation to EICRs as I’ve just had a lanlawd tell me to stop talking sh@t
Has there not been an update to that publication since 2007?
The guidance that I quoted from in my previous post was published in December 2016. However, the law was changed in April 2018 and all homes in Scotland are now legally required to have smoke, heat alarms installed, not just new builds and rental properties. Homeowners have until 2020 to comply.
I see nothing that would indicate the requirement for mains-operated alarms in rental properties has been removed. Indeed, if anything the indication is that status quo remains:
The proposed standards are an extension to the existing standards for privately rented properties, so a private landlord should already be complying.
According to the Scottish Government, "the cost for an average two bedroom, two storey house could be between £160 and £280. A one bedroom flat should cost between £120 and £200."
Aye right. If you say so. I certainly won't be installing any mains-operated alarms at those prices, that's for sure.
Just my tuppence worth, but as I have said before, the Scottish government recently had an open discussion document and have accepted that hard-wiring is no longer necessary, as advances in technology have shown that Li-ion 10 year battery units., with radio modules will be fine. This is good news because the lack of disruption to decoration will be minimised, so the labour will be too, so the final cost will be lower, so more landlords will be prepared to do the work, so tenants will be safer. I have installed to these parameters for a couple of years, but...it is NOT law yet, still has to be ratified, but it will be...some LAs accept it as being part D, some however do not yet. Having read the report, yes you will be falling foul of the current legislation if you instal wireless modules on 10 year Li-ion, but by the end of 2018 I expect this will be the new standard. I may be out of date as I have not checked this today.
Frankly, the sound produced by, for example, Aico alarms, would wake the dead in Carlisle from anywhere in Scotland, and as most rented properties require an alarm in the hall, living room and kitchen, you are never more than 20 feet away from one, and as any one of them will set off the others, you would have to be dead not to hear one...
I know...laws are one thing, practicalities another, but installing to the new standards will be easier all round...and preclude the extra sticker on the CU that says "DO NOT MEGGER"...
Frankly, the sound produced by, for example, Aico alarms, would wake the dead in Carlisle from anywhere in Scotland, and as most rented properties require an alarm in the hall, living room and kitchen, you are never more than 20 feet away from one, and as any one of them will set off the others, you would have to be dead not to hear one...
I know...laws are one thing, practicalities another, but installing to the new standards will be easier all round...and preclude the extra sticker on the CU that says "DO NOT MEGGER"...
I will continue to install mains-operated smoke and heat alarms in rented properties until such times that the Scottish Government confirm that mains-operated smoke and heat alarms are no longer required in rented properties. To the best of my knowledge, they have not yet done so.
I'll be most surprised indeed if this requirement is removed as this would mean that the level of protection would be dropped from grade D to grade F. I really don't see this happening.
How many landlawds have replaced their main powered ones after 10 year lifespan? The dates are printed on them, and it just a case of changing the head for Aico products.... but with the 10 year lithium battery ones, the low battery warning beep will tell you it’s time to change.
I agree that mains powered is the preferred choice, but for upheaval on a property new to the rental market, battery is a good choice.
I agree that mains powered is the preferred choice, but for upheaval on a property new to the rental market, battery is a good choice.
Battery alarms don't comply with the current standard for private rented properties. For these properties LD2 is the required standard:
Fire and smoke alarms in Scottish homes consultation: analysis of responses - gov.scot - https://www.gov.scot/publications/consultation-fire-smoke-alarms-scottish-homes-analysis-responses/pages/9/
A category LD2 system has alarms in circulation spaces and also in rooms that present a high fire risk. The current standard for new buildings and private rented housing recognises kitchens and living rooms as high fire risk areas, so houses that meet this standard would by LD2 systems.
JK, I don't disagree with what you said. You are completely correct that battery alarms do not meet the current standards.
However, I have information via the Scottish Association of Landlords which suggets in very clear terms that the aim is to get safety in PRS (Private Rented Sector) and any move which improves safety will be actively supported. In short, 10 year battery alarms with radio interface will be acceptable soon. You are absolutely right to install to the current regs.
However, I have information via the Scottish Association of Landlords which suggets in very clear terms that the aim is to get safety in PRS (Private Rented Sector) and any move which improves safety will be actively supported. In short, 10 year battery alarms with radio interface will be acceptable soon. You are absolutely right to install to the current regs.
I'll be surprised if this actually becomes policy, but you never know with the Scottish Government.
pdate on changes to smoke/heat detector requirements
1 July 2018 News
As we reported earlier this year, the housing minister has agreed to allow long life sealed unit battery smoke/heat detectors in place of mains powered ones in all tenures, which will significantly reduce the cost and difficulty of fitting detectors. Many members have been asking us when this change will be introduced.
The Scottish Government has advised us that legislation will be laid before parliament soon and assuming it is approved, landlords will be permitted to install battery detectors instead of mains powered ones towards the end of this year. Although subject to parliamentary approval, the proposal is to require detectors to be powered by a sealed-in battery with a 10 year lifespan. Detectors will still need to be interlinked with others in the property. We will update members with more details as soon as they are available.
This from the SAL website.
1 July 2018 News
As we reported earlier this year, the housing minister has agreed to allow long life sealed unit battery smoke/heat detectors in place of mains powered ones in all tenures, which will significantly reduce the cost and difficulty of fitting detectors. Many members have been asking us when this change will be introduced.
The Scottish Government has advised us that legislation will be laid before parliament soon and assuming it is approved, landlords will be permitted to install battery detectors instead of mains powered ones towards the end of this year. Although subject to parliamentary approval, the proposal is to require detectors to be powered by a sealed-in battery with a 10 year lifespan. Detectors will still need to be interlinked with others in the property. We will update members with more details as soon as they are available.
This from the SAL website.
As we reported earlier this year, the housing minister has agreed to allow long life sealed unit battery smoke/heat detectors in place of mains powered ones in all tenures, which will significantly reduce the cost and difficulty of fitting detectors.
Nice of him to privately tell landlords of this important change, but say nothing to the electricians who are trying to comply with the increasingly piecemeal guidance coming from the Scottish Government. So in effect, the Scottish Government is overseeing the downgrading of smoke and heat alarms in private lets from grade D to grade F. What does the fire brigade have to say about this, I wonder? It will be interesting to see how insurance companies will react.
Yet again money has taken precedence over safety. Although I'm surprised that this change has been sanctioned, I'm even more surprised that I'm actually surprised, if you catch my drift.
Many members have been asking us when this change will be introduced.
I'll bet. No more greedy electricians to worry about, eh?
The Scottish Government has advised us that legislation will be laid before parliament soon and assuming it is approved, landlords will be permitted to install battery detectors instead of mains powered ones towards the end of this year.
Well, it will indeed be landlords that will be fitting them because I can't see too many sparks being bothered to fit battery-operated alarms that a monkey could fit. I certainly won't be, that's for sure. Indeed, with some landlords expecting EICRs to be done for £60, and with some even believing that they shouldn't have to pay if they don't receive a satisfactory report, I think the time has finally arrived for me to quit doing landlord/letting agency work. It's a pain in the arse at the best of times anyway.
Although subject to parliamentary approval, the proposal is to require detectors to be powered by a sealed-in battery with a 10 year lifespan.
So nothing is yet written in stone.
Detectors will still need to be interlinked with others in the property. We will update members with more details as soon as they are available.
I await with baited breath.
Nice of him to privately tell landlords of this important change, but say nothing to the electricians who are trying to comply with the increasingly piecemeal guidance coming from the Scottish Government. So in effect, the Scottish Government is overseeing the downgrading of smoke and heat alarms in private lets from grade D to grade F. What does the fire brigade have to say about this, I wonder? It will be interesting to see how insurance companies will react.
Yet again money has taken precedence over safety. Although I'm surprised that this change has been sanctioned, I'm even more surprised that I'm actually surprised, if you catch my drift.
Many members have been asking us when this change will be introduced.
I'll bet. No more greedy electricians to worry about, eh?
The Scottish Government has advised us that legislation will be laid before parliament soon and assuming it is approved, landlords will be permitted to install battery detectors instead of mains powered ones towards the end of this year.
Well, it will indeed be landlords that will be fitting them because I can't see too many sparks being bothered to fit battery-operated alarms that a monkey could fit. I certainly won't be, that's for sure. Indeed, with some landlords expecting EICRs to be done for £60, and with some even believing that they shouldn't have to pay if they don't receive a satisfactory report, I think the time has finally arrived for me to quit doing landlord/letting agency work. It's a pain in the arse at the best of times anyway.
Although subject to parliamentary approval, the proposal is to require detectors to be powered by a sealed-in battery with a 10 year lifespan.
So nothing is yet written in stone.
Detectors will still need to be interlinked with others in the property. We will update members with more details as soon as they are available.
I await with baited breath.
Because of a number of tragic fires in Scotland regulations were tightened up for private let's , Scottish government brought out a bill to ensure private landlords had to have property checked by gas and electrical inspector and fire alarms were mandatory
JK, it's seldom I take issue with your views, but for once, while I agree that there is some downgrading involved, it is also true to say that modern technology creates different solutions and thus different rules.
Yes, landlords may be rejoicing at the easier to comply with rules, and that may result in fewer jobs for proper electricians, but it may also result in more landlords being prepared to comply with the regs, which is, frankly, a better position.
However, the Scottish system is such that you cannot let a property without:
EPC
Gas Safety Certificate
EICR
Legionella Risk Assessment
Smoke and CO alarms
all of which contribute to the safety of tenants (except the EPC which is an abomination from the EC and of no use whatsoever..except we will have to achieve "D" or better in 5 years)
Interestingly, in a different thread, the question was posed what smoke alarms do you recommend?
Virtually all answers voted for AICO ones with mains input, 10 year lithium batteries and the option of radio interlink...
that is surely an indication that our friends on here applaud the value of such items, notwithstanding the fact that fitting such items is well within good DIY skills. That this is likely to be law here in Scotland soon is a good thing, and should not be looked on as a degradation from D to F, but an acknowledgement that D can now be achieved by other means. Be fair...insisting on hard-wiring interconnects is just so out of date..and electricians faced with hardwiring in period properties would rather walk away than argue the ---- with property owners about destroying/making good coving and cornicing. Instead, be thankful that here we have a mandatory EICR...and if £60 is the going rate, again walk away...when the powers that be find out that these budget jobs are crap, you will be able to move in and make a decent price...albeit, most sh*t landlords will not want to pay...but that is no better or worse than it is now.
On another tack, given the Scottish Government's recent tax changes, there are so many landlords leaving the PRS (Private Rented Sector) that the work for electricians here is dwindling fast, as landlords offload their properties due to the cost of compliance and the dreadfully unfair tax treatment. Oddly, such a big sector of rentals is PRS, because there simply isn't enough provision of social housing, so the net result will be a huge reduction in PRS rentals, and thus a huge reduction in availability of rented property.
I have pulled out of this sector precisely for the above reasons.
Now I AirBnB at 5x the income, and I don't have to comply with anything...
I do have to do changeovers and laundry and pay council tax , but actually I pay rates instead, and as my rateable value is below the threshold I pay nothing...and I am not required to have the same standards as for the PRS, but yes, I do have compliance with the PRS regs by having all of the paperwork mentioned above, simply because i feel that such compliance means my tenants/guests are adequately protected, because my property is let to the same standard as required by PRS regs.
How many on here can honestly claim that their own families in their own homes are so well protected?
Yes, landlords may be rejoicing at the easier to comply with rules, and that may result in fewer jobs for proper electricians, but it may also result in more landlords being prepared to comply with the regs, which is, frankly, a better position.
However, the Scottish system is such that you cannot let a property without:
EPC
Gas Safety Certificate
EICR
Legionella Risk Assessment
Smoke and CO alarms
all of which contribute to the safety of tenants (except the EPC which is an abomination from the EC and of no use whatsoever..except we will have to achieve "D" or better in 5 years)
Interestingly, in a different thread, the question was posed what smoke alarms do you recommend?
Virtually all answers voted for AICO ones with mains input, 10 year lithium batteries and the option of radio interlink...
that is surely an indication that our friends on here applaud the value of such items, notwithstanding the fact that fitting such items is well within good DIY skills. That this is likely to be law here in Scotland soon is a good thing, and should not be looked on as a degradation from D to F, but an acknowledgement that D can now be achieved by other means. Be fair...insisting on hard-wiring interconnects is just so out of date..and electricians faced with hardwiring in period properties would rather walk away than argue the ---- with property owners about destroying/making good coving and cornicing. Instead, be thankful that here we have a mandatory EICR...and if £60 is the going rate, again walk away...when the powers that be find out that these budget jobs are crap, you will be able to move in and make a decent price...albeit, most sh*t landlords will not want to pay...but that is no better or worse than it is now.
On another tack, given the Scottish Government's recent tax changes, there are so many landlords leaving the PRS (Private Rented Sector) that the work for electricians here is dwindling fast, as landlords offload their properties due to the cost of compliance and the dreadfully unfair tax treatment. Oddly, such a big sector of rentals is PRS, because there simply isn't enough provision of social housing, so the net result will be a huge reduction in PRS rentals, and thus a huge reduction in availability of rented property.
I have pulled out of this sector precisely for the above reasons.
Now I AirBnB at 5x the income, and I don't have to comply with anything...
I do have to do changeovers and laundry and pay council tax , but actually I pay rates instead, and as my rateable value is below the threshold I pay nothing...and I am not required to have the same standards as for the PRS, but yes, I do have compliance with the PRS regs by having all of the paperwork mentioned above, simply because i feel that such compliance means my tenants/guests are adequately protected, because my property is let to the same standard as required by PRS regs.
How many on here can honestly claim that their own families in their own homes are so well protected?
In other words, you disagree! Such audacity. How dare you? I'll make you walk the plank into shark-infested waters for your insolence.
If a Fire Alarm Design, Installation & Commissioning Certificate is going to be required by the Scottish Government for Grade F alarms, which in all probability it will be, then landlords are still going to require the services of a professional electrician to install battery-operated alarms otherwise they're not going to get their certificate!
All landlords should already be complying with the Scottish Government's guidance. It is statutory, not optional. Lest they be actively seeking prosecution, landlords don't have a choice as to whether they comply or not. They simply must or face the music.
Just about everything that emanates from the EU is an abomination!
IMHO, in a domestic dwelling you really can't get any better than the system described above.
I wouldn't consider the R1 + R2, Zs and IR tests that need to be carried-out on a smoke/heat alarm installation as being within the remit of a DIYer. Indeed, my apprentice and I were at a job a few weeks ago having been invited by the new property owner (prospective landlord) to investigate why two smoke alarms and a heat alarm were working individually but not collectively. I thought it would be a good experience for the boy wonder to do some fault-finding. He quickly discovered that the interlinking wire had not been correctly connected at each of the three alarms. This was yet another incident in a catalogue of DIY disasters that we have come across in recent times. Needless to say, there was no minor works or FADIC certificates given to the new owner by the previous.
Grade D smoke/heat alarms are mains-powered with battery back-up. Grade F is battery-powered alarms. It isn't possible to achieve Grade D by any means other than mains-powered alarms with battery back-up!
https://www.aico.co.uk/standards-and-regulations/british-standard-bs-5839-62013
As the statutory guidance stands at the moment, Grade D LD2 is the required standard for private lets. If a rental property is a period property, the chances are that good old-fashioned floorboards will be present. Ergo access to ceilings in the lower-level can be facilitated from the room(s) above by lifting the floorboards. Cornicing and coving can therefore be preserved. However, for a variety of reasons, it is sometimes not possible to install smoke and heat alarms without damage being sustained to walls and ceilings. It's very much a case of eggs and omelettes (the Penilee job we did is a prime example!) and the property-owner has little choice but to accept the reality of the situation and make good the damage by hiring a plasterer and/or decorator.
In a similar residential property where there is no statutory guidance for the installation of a Grade D LD2 system, Grade F would suffice and it makes sense to preserve the decor by using battery-powered, interlinked alarms. That said, it would be wise to check with one's home insurance provider first!
In my experience, the majority of landlords that I've dealt with are decent, law-abiding people. It's the penny-pinching 'how much will this cost, how much will that cost, oy vey, oy vey, I am going to end up in the poor-house at this rate' type landlord who get on my ----. I don't do business with these misers.
I'm aware of these changes, but I can't say that this has led to a downturn in the level of work that I get from landlords. On the contrary, it is actually increasing!
The current social housing crisis has its roots in the decision taken by the Thatcher government to force local authorities to sell-off the nation's social housing stock. Quite a lot of the properties that I've carried-out EICRs in and installed alarms in are ex-council stock.
As a businessman, you will always make decisions that are based upon what is right for your business.
...... except HMRCs demand that you pay them more tax!!!
I commend you. But I'm still going to make you walk the plank anyway ..... you are shark-food.
Well sh...sh..sh..shivver mmmmm meee ttt imbers, JK ppplease...d.d.d.don't make me do it!!! I can't walk the plank! I can't swim! That's not fair!
"Jabber, peck his eyes out!"
I am impressed that you dissected my discourse and analysed all my generalities as well as "facts"...the Scottish Government told Landlords about these changes, but not electricians, because they are stupid and narrow-focussed (politicians, not electricians!) and tried only to appease voters...
I am not surprised the boy wonder found a flaw in the hard wiring between alarms...battery ones with radio modules would not have produced such a fault...however, any system, regardless of what type, relies on regular testing...testing...testing...how many tenants bother to test?
I had a clause in my leases requiring tenants to test monthly, but reserving the right for the landlord to test monthly instead, and I did...and I kept a log and the tenant signed it.
Oh well, a counsel of perfection, and easy for me to do with only a couple of properties...thing is, those Aico gadgets are robust, reliable, and easy to install and maintain...and even if only one sounded, and the radio interlink failed, no-one could sleep through the din! Different in a detached, large house, but in a flat, no problem. I say all of this because it is a matter of interest to me, and hopefully some others. Nevertheless, if you are installing tomorrow, you can only go with the current law. The sooner the new regs are made law, the better, imho.
Erm...could I wear my water-wings when walking the plank?
"Jabber, peck his eyes out!"
I am impressed that you dissected my discourse and analysed all my generalities as well as "facts"...the Scottish Government told Landlords about these changes, but not electricians, because they are stupid and narrow-focussed (politicians, not electricians!) and tried only to appease voters...
I am not surprised the boy wonder found a flaw in the hard wiring between alarms...battery ones with radio modules would not have produced such a fault...however, any system, regardless of what type, relies on regular testing...testing...testing...how many tenants bother to test?
I had a clause in my leases requiring tenants to test monthly, but reserving the right for the landlord to test monthly instead, and I did...and I kept a log and the tenant signed it.
Oh well, a counsel of perfection, and easy for me to do with only a couple of properties...thing is, those Aico gadgets are robust, reliable, and easy to install and maintain...and even if only one sounded, and the radio interlink failed, no-one could sleep through the din! Different in a detached, large house, but in a flat, no problem. I say all of this because it is a matter of interest to me, and hopefully some others. Nevertheless, if you are installing tomorrow, you can only go with the current law. The sooner the new regs are made law, the better, imho.
Erm...could I wear my water-wings when walking the plank?
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