C3s putting you in harms way ??

Timbo · Apr 6, 2021

Soi disant said:
You may be over-thinking it. That bit in the Introduction says that non-compliant installations do not have to be upgraded. It does not say that existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the regulations are deemed to comply with this edition if they are not unsafe for continued use.

What has yet to be determined by a court ruling is whether the law requiring that "electrical safety standards are met" means that an existing installation has to comply with every aspect of BS 7671:2018 or only some, and if the latter, which.

A consensus seems to have emerged that it must have no non-compliances coded as C1 or C2. Superficially reasonable, if we think it reasonable to enshrine in law the can of worms which is the significantly indeterminate nature of many C2-or-C3 decisions ¹ .

But, and this is where you may be under-thinking it, there is no basis in fact for any determination based on C1/C2/C3. None whatsoever.

The lawmakers have done a truly abysmal job. Leaving aside the is-it-a-C2-or-a-C3 issue, they could have required landlords to have an EICR carried out which complied with the current edition of the Wiring Regulations (i.e. the carrying out of the EICR had to be in accordance, not the installation) and that any C1 or C2 conditions be rectified within x days and a new EICR done.

But they didn't. What they did was unbelievable, really. (Or is it, sadly, all too believable?)

They required that private landlords must ensure that the electrical safety standards are met during any period when the residential premises are occupied under a specified tenancy.

And they defined "electrical safety standards" as "the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018".
QUOTE]

From the Gov guidance document @timhoward linked to above, section 8:

Timbo · Apr 6, 2021

Lister1987 · Apr 6, 2021

Dartlec said:
Non-Combustible is the phrase I believe - and an example is given of steel. No idea if the BS standard for CUs says something different now, but there's no reason in principle why they couldn't find a suitable plastic or other material that was non-combustible - I just suspect it would cost more so they went with the cheapest option.

It would be handy to have a non-combustible AND non-conducting material for TT installations.

Non-flame propagating would be term;

Non-flame propagating. Liable to ignite as a result of an applied flame but, after the flame is removed, does not propagate further and extinguishes itself within a limited time.

That term however applies to containment systems.

The Regulation pertaining to domestic CUs is;

421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation
132.12.
NOTE: Ferrous metal, e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-combustible material.

Soi disant said:
How about because the Wiring Regulations, and hence the law, do not mandate it?

Or because the fact that at the time you did the inspection plastic CUs could still be installed in offices, shops, schools, pubs, restaurants, care homes, indicated to you that plastic CUs did not need to be replaced as a matter of urgency?

I don't normally berate other members but I'm sorry, get a clue. Wiring Regulations are non-statutory (not law), the statue (law) applicable to Electricians and Electrical Installations is Electricity at Work 1989.
If you're going to spout rubbish,please make it informed and researched rubbish, other you just look stupid.

old man sparky · Apr 6, 2021

Lister1987 said:
Non-flame propagating would be term;

Non-flame propagating. Liable to ignite as a result of an applied flame but, after the flame is removed, does not propagate further and extinguishes itself within a limited time.

That term however applies to containment systems.

The Regulation pertaining to domestic CUs is;

421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:
(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or
(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation
132.12.
NOTE: Ferrous metal, e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-combustible material.

I don't normally berate other members but I'm sorry, get a clue. Wiring Regulations are non-statutory (not law), the statue (law) applicable to Electricians and Electrical Installations is Electricity at Work 1989.
If you're going to spout rubbish,please make it informed and researched rubbish, other you just look stupid.

Your forgetting the EICRs for rented properties are now a legal requirement. And the guidance to landlords is that the EICR ensures there properties Comply with the latest version of BS7671. An EICR was not a mandatory document. But has that changed. I will not comment yes or no because I am not a trained lawyer barrister or judge. Thats the whole point. We are only putting our personal view points on a forum. A court and there interpretation of case law is another matter entirely

Soi disant · Apr 6, 2021

Timbo said:
View attachment 84288

Yes, but when you read the 18th you see that it does not contain a single standard which existing installations have to meet - it only applies to the design, erection, additions, alterations, and verification of electrical installations designed after 31st December 2018.

The guidance you quote doesn't change what the numpty lawyers wrote. If they even were lawyers, and not junior off-shore office clerks working self-employed for Serco.

Soi disant · Apr 6, 2021

old man sparky said:
Your forgetting the EICRs for rented properties are now a legal requirement.

They aren't, strictly speaking - there's nothing in the law which makes them so. It's just that it's the way that makes the most sense. It's a bit like Part P not actually requiring work to comply with BS 7671, but the reality being it makes precious little sense to do otherwise.

old man sparky said:
And the guidance to landlords is that the EICR ensures there properties Comply with the latest version of BS7671.

Except of course that is impossible, unless you use the special definition of "comply".

old man sparky said:
A court and there interpretation of case law is another matter entirely

Which in all probability will never happen - any landlord faced with a report he doesn't like could have the place totally rewired using russ andrews cryogenically treated cables and a gold-plated CU for less than the cost of lawyers.

old man sparky · Apr 6, 2021

Soi disant said:
Yes, but when you read the 18th you see that it does not contain a single standard which existing installations have to meet - it only applies to the design, erection, additions, alterations, and verification of electrical installations designed after 31st December 2018.

The guidance you quote doesn't change what the numpty lawyers wrote. If they even were lawyers, and not junior off-shore office clerks working self-employed for Serco.

It doesn't matter what the 18th says as it has no legal standing. The legal authority comes from the landlords having a legal obligation to have an eicr that complies with the 18th. And thats from government legislation not any edition of BS7671.

Soi disant · Apr 6, 2021

old man sparky said:
It doesn't matter what the 18th says as it has no legal standing. The legal authority comes from the landlords having a legal obligation to have an eicr that complies with the 18th. And thats from government legislation not any edition of BS7671.

Since you clearly disagree with

Soi disant said:
They aren't, strictly speaking - there's nothing in the law which makes them so.

perhaps you'd like to quote the part of The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/contents/made which imposes a legal obligation to have an eicr that complies with the 18th.

old man sparky · Apr 6, 2021

Soi disant said:
Since you clearly disagree with

perhaps you'd like to quote the part of The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/contents/made which imposes a legal obligation to have an eicr that complies with the 18th.

And thats exactly where this thread gets a definitive answer phew ? There is a lot of information out there. But nothing in government guidelines that says Landlords EICRs or anyone else's EICRs have to legally comply with the current edition of the regulations. Just a legal requirement for landlords to have an EICR carried out every 5 years. ?

Lister1987 · Apr 6, 2021

old man sparky said:
And thats exactly where this thread gets a definitive answer phew ? There is a lot of information out there. But nothing in government guidelines that says Landlords EICRs or anyone else's EICRs have to legally comply with the current edition of the regulations. Just a legal requirement for landlords to have an EICR carried out every 5 years. ?

Given that the wording in the above legislation doesn't, iirc, state that the outcome MUST be satisfactory, a LL could just have an EICR undertaken to 18th edition, have it come back as unsatisfactory and yet still have met the requirements of the legislation. Surely not?

loz2754 · Apr 6, 2021

Lister1987 said:
Given that the wording in the above legislation doesn't, iirc, state that the outcome MUST be satisfactory, a LL could just have an EICR undertaken to 18th edition, have it come back as unsatisfactory and yet still have met the requirements of the legislation. Surely not?

Indeed.
But the law further stipulates that any remedial work that is deemed necessary, resulting in the unsatisfactory report, must be done within 28 days from when the report was issued.

Pretty Mouth · Apr 6, 2021

i=p/u said:
https://electrical.electriciansforu...ble-enclosure-requirement-for-consumer-units/

The backs of boards should be sealed on reading this, and manufactures can bring new.materials to market if they prove non combustable.
Care homes and the.like ain't part of this even tho no differnece in my eyes ..

And over all they are blaming bad workmanship, but the work could of been good for 10 years prior to fire.

The IET also put out other guidance in a Q+A, apparently contradicting the guidance you linked to above. The forum censors links to wiring matters, but if you put "Consumer units: a brief overview" into your search engine (quote marks included) it should come up top of the list:

When I put cables into a new metal consumer unit, do I have to use intumescent glands to enforce the fire protection of the consumer unit?

No, the metal consumer unit is designed to encase a fire within it and restrict the likelihood that a fire may spread. Manufactures’ have carried out exhaustive tests on this issue and have found that the cable entry does not have to continue the fire rating of the consumer unit, for it to be effective. The only requirement is to keep IPXXD or IP4X on the horizontal surfaces (Reg 416.2.1) and IPXXB or IP2X on all other surfaces (Reg 416.2.2). Intumescent glands and sealants may be used to ensure the IP ratings are maintained, but they are not a requirement and existing methods of ensuring IP are acceptable.

SparkySy · Apr 6, 2021

Very interesting analysis of this ver hot topic! Above this is why it is down to the inspectors own engineering judgement on the day to an extent. As there are no real rules or legislation to cover every eventually we may come across. The electrical industry is so varied and wide that a dossier to cover all would be ridiculous in size!

telectrix · Apr 7, 2021

SparkySy said:
Very interesting analysis of this ver hot topic! Above this is why it is down to the inspectors own engineering judgement on the day to an extent. As there are no real rules or legislation to cover every eventually we may come across. The electrical industry is so varied and wide that a dossier to cover all would be ridiculous in size!

almost as bigb as my dossier at Police HQ., Anfield.

Lister1987 · Apr 8, 2021

telectrix said:
almost as bigb as my dossier at Police HQ., Anfield.

Can't be, last I heard some Scouse git nicked it.....thieving bastards will take anything these days!

C3s putting you in harms way ??

Timbo

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Timbo

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Lister1987

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old man sparky

Soi disant

Soi disant

old man sparky

Soi disant

old man sparky

Lister1987

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loz2754

Pretty Mouth

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SparkySy

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telectrix

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Lister1987

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