I need to install a kitchen range receptacle for gas fired range

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 10, 2021

Background is we are selling our house and moving out of state. I've been fixing big and little things and painting for several months now, as well as purging possessions and packing.

House was built in 1961/1962 and has mostly old two conductor cable supplying everything.

I might add that the previous owner who I think did this work or most of it, IS a licensed electrician in this state! And this is not the first thing I've seen done poorly or incorrectly in this house.

When we bought the house, every outlet was a 3-prong outlet, most with no ground. I found some that have a wire connected between ground and neutral, which I can only guess was done to fool the home inspector when we bought the house. There has been some newer work in the kitchen, bathroom and garage that I verified has a proper "Earth" ground by checking continuity to the copper water pipe being used for ground in the garage, and to the grounding rod in front of the house.

We pulled out the kitchen range to clean behind and I was going to check out the power outlet to make sure it was connected correctly and has a proper ground (gas fired range and needs 15A/120V power for controls, fans, lights). But I found that the range is not plugged into an outlet. Some previous owner ran an extension cord through holes in the cabinet and plugged the range into that. I don't know where the extension cord is plugged in--I suspect the same outlet as the fridge, but we haven't pulled the fridge out yet.

So I know I need to install at least a 15A receptacle for the range, per the install instructions for the range.

There is an over range microwave that has power consumption of 1650W per its user manual. It is plugged into an outlet that has opened another can of worms. Whoever put that in ran power to it via 14/2 Romex from a junction box below it that is original work for this house, and maybe used to have an outlet or a light switch.

[ElectriciansForums.net] I need to install a kitchen range receptacle for gas fired range

Closeup photos of the junction box and outlet for microwave:

Here's a diagram I drew of the layout because I can't get back far enough in small kitchen for complete photo.

Can I do this:

1. Disconnect the range from the extension cord, trace that out and remove it.
2. Replace the original work box that is now a junction box, with an old work metal box, and then attach a metal extender box to the front of it.
3. Pull new 12/2 cable down into that box to supply the outlet to the microwave above and install a 20A GFCI there because there is NOT a proper ground.
4. Run flex conduit with 12/2 or 14/2 Romex through the cabinet from the new extender box to a new handy box attached to the side of the cabinet above the range, and install a 15A GFCI outlet there for the range.

Do I have to run a NEW power cord from the main box to the outlet for the microwave, and take power from anywhere else for a new outlet for the range? (to get it off of the fridge circuit)

Microwave consumption per its manual is 1650W which I calculate is 13-15A depending on system voltage (runs 118-119 here). I don't know if you have to assume 110V for max amps?

All this assumes the power cable coming into the junction box is 12 ga. If it's 14 then I can't use that for the microwave, but it could still supply the range.

I don't know what the other old cable is coming into the junction box. I can't find anything else that is off when I turn off that power at the breaker.

I would post this in the DIY forum, but it doesn't appear that I have privileges to do that.,

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 13, 2021

UPDATE: I got a local electrician to consult on this and he told me this is a good plan. Thank you all. I have a good solution, but I still would welcome any suggestions.

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 14, 2021

This must be really difficult to assess. There's an old saying that when you're asking for advice, what you're really looking for is an accomplice. I guess no one wants to be my accomplice.

I got advice on it and I'm moving forward with my plan but I do have conflicting advice from the realtor and from an electrician. The sparky said to mount the new range receptacle low as in new construction and remodels. The realtor said to mount it high above the back of the range so that new homeowner will know it is a GFCI outlet and maybe needs to be reset if the range loses power.

My concern about the latter is heat from the oven with the range power cord running directly behind and up. Should I be worried about that?

With the outlet mounted low, the range power cord won't run directly behind the oven in that more confined space between the range and the wall above the cavity the mfr creates there for the power and gas connections.

Megawatt · Jul 18, 2021

mytoiletsclogged said:
UPDATE: I got a local electrician to consult on this and he told me this is a good plan. Thank you all. I have a good solution, but I still would welcome any suggestions.

Well all I can tell you is each appliance has to have it’s own circuit. Microwave, fridge. Washing machine, they also need to be GFCI protected since you have no grounds but on each receptacle has to have a sticker attached to each receptacle stating no grounds which will bring you in compliance with the current NEC code book. Good luck with your project

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 19, 2021

The house will have to be completely rewired for each appliance to get its own circuit, and if we were staying here that was my next big improvement project. Right now the washing machine has its own 20A circuit and I gave it a 20A GFCI, the dishwasher and disposal are hardwired on one, the microwave now has a 20A GFCI and shares a 20A circuit with the range on a 15A GFCI and one wall outlet that I can find (happens to be the one by my desk that my computer uses), but the fridge is on a 15A circuit with lights and outlets in the kitchen, hallway and one bedroom. I can't fix the fridge circuit without running a new circuit just for the fridge. This is how the house was wired when we bought it, and is probably better than how it was built, except for moving the range off of the fridge circuit to the microwave circuit, that I just did. Except that I had the electrical service upgraded to 200A years ago to give capacity for a room addition and rewiring, and all three circuits that light bedrooms have AFCI breakers.

My question here was whether my plan to fix for the range power would be code compliant, to (1) get the range off of the fridge circuit; (2) get the range powered from a GFCI outlet instead of an extension cord plugged into the same outlet as the fridge; and (3) move it to the same circuit with the microwave. Because they are all swamped with work right now for some reason, it was going to be two weeks before I could even get somebody to look at the house and then the end of July earliest to have any actual work done. I did get a local electrician to look at these photos and my description of the problem and my plan and tell me this would pass inspection.

I am curious though if this is common--that in order to sell my house, I have to fix several code violations that existed when we bought the house but were not flagged by the inspector at that time? And don't get me wrong--my issue is not with making things right so that it's safe. My issue is that the inspector did not flag these things when we bought the house and make the previous owner fix them:
1. Range powered from an extension cord run through a hole in the cabinets
2. Every single outlet in the house was 3-prong and most with no ground
3. A number of bootleg grounds

And by the way, the plug on the extension cord the range was plugged into was done so badly, it was like amateur hour. I'm having a lot of trouble believing that even a lousy electrician did that. The wires were stripped back way too far and in contact with the screws. It has a metal armor shield and I got shocked on it before I turned it off and put on a hospital grade plug just to remove that hazard until I could run the cable for the new outlet.

There have been many other things I've fixed over the years here--wall boxes screwed to studs with drywall screws--the guy must have gotten a bulk deal on drywall screws because he used them for EVERYTHING. I've never had to buy any because I've had plenty from removing them from places they shouldn't have been used.

Megawatt · Jul 20, 2021

mytoiletsclogged said:
The house will have to be completely rewired for each appliance to get its own circuit, and if we were staying here that was my next big improvement project. Right now the washing machine has its own 20A circuit and I gave it a 20A GFCI, the dishwasher and disposal are hardwired on one, the microwave now has a 20A GFCI and shares a 20A circuit with the range on a 15A GFCI and one wall outlet that I can find (happens to be the one by my desk that my computer uses), but the fridge is on a 15A circuit with lights and outlets in the kitchen, hallway and one bedroom. I can't fix the fridge circuit without running a new circuit just for the fridge. This is how the house was wired when we bought it, and is probably better than how it was built, except for moving the range off of the fridge circuit to the microwave circuit, that I just did. Except that I had the electrical service upgraded to 200A years ago to give capacity for a room addition and rewiring, and all three circuits that light bedrooms have AFCI breakers.

My question here was whether my plan to fix for the range power would be code compliant, to (1) get the range off of the fridge circuit; (2) get the range powered from a GFCI outlet instead of an extension cord plugged into the same outlet as the fridge; and (3) move it to the same circuit with the microwave. Because they are all swamped with work right now for some reason, it was going to be two weeks before I could even get somebody to look at the house and then the end of July earliest to have any actual work done. I did get a local electrician to look at these photos and my description of the problem and my plan and tell me this would pass inspection.

I am curious though if this is common--that in order to sell my house, I have to fix several code violations that existed when we bought the house but were not flagged by the inspector at that time? And don't get me wrong--my issue is not with making things right so that it's safe. My issue is that the inspector did not flag these things when we bought the house and make the previous owner fix them:
1. Range powered from an extension cord run through a hole in the cabinets
2. Every single outlet in the house was 3-prong and most with no ground
3. A number of bootleg grounds

And by the way, the plug on the extension cord the range was plugged into was done so badly, it was like amateur hour. I'm having a lot of trouble believing that even a lousy electrician did that. The wires were stripped back way too far and in contact with the screws. It has a metal armor shield and I got shocked on it before I turned it off and put on a hospital grade plug just to remove that hazard until I could run the cable for the new outlet.

There have been many other things I've fixed over the years here--wall boxes screwed to studs with drywall screws--the guy must have gotten a bulk deal on drywall screws because he used them for EVERYTHING. I've never had to buy any because I've had plenty from removing them from places they shouldn't have been used.

Brother you have a problem but not as bad as it could be. I’ve done many houses that the people buying it has an Inspestor to check in the attic, basement, and the biggest thing is no grounds or GFCI receptacles. As far as getting shocked you didn’t fix the problem because I bet there is not plastic insert in side the armored cable or as it’s really called MC cable. In reality the range, fridge, microwave, garbage disposal, and dryer requires it’s own isolated circuit with GFCI protection. You are allowed to install receptacles that have a ground plug but each one of them by code have to be marked with stickers stating no equipment ground. I know it’s a lot and a pain in the butt and the person inspecting the house is not an electrician, his job is to find all he can wrong. Take it one day at a time and get you an electrician to fix all your electrical problems and you can handle your plumbing issues. Good luck

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 20, 2021

Megawatt, I appreciate your insights. I was a 20 year career Navy electrician, so I do have some experience that I summarized in my introduction on the Welcome page. But I could tell you a dozen ways off the top how residential is different from what I did, and ever changing code has been a learning curve for me. So I really appreciate this forum and people who are willing to give time to help me sort that out.

I did use the red plastic inserts at each end of the flex conduit. I'm sure pros buy them by the hundreds, but it cost me like $1.68 for a bag of 20 or 30. And still I filed each end of the conduit to remove the sharp edges because I'm just kinda paranoid that way after some of the things I've seen shipboard. Had to push and shove to get the conduit to bottom out in the little squeeze clamp all the way. I didn't count 'em but I have some leftovers that I might need when we move to our new house in Kansas or when we start renovating my dad's house. I've used six of them now for the two electrical issues I had to fix (I also had to put in a junction box in the garage where there was a splice just hanging between two rafters of the old two conductor cable and new 12/2 Romex powering garage lights, and I had to move the receptacle that powers the washing machine because I already had plumbers relocate the washer discharge when we had our sewer repiped and the water supply lines to the washer relocated so that the washer and dryer could be side-by-side.

Like I said, I've found more issues in this house that I've had to fix than just this range extension cord and ground wires.

For new construction and remodel, yes code requires the appliances to be on their own circuits. But I'm not required to rewire an old house that's overdue for a remodel just to accomplish that.

As for getting an electrician to fix my problems, just finding one that's available is the hard part. I can't wait for a month to have somebody have availability to come fix my problems so that I can sell my house.

Megawatt · Jul 20, 2021

mytoiletsclogged said:
Megawatt, I appreciate your insights. I was a 20 year career Navy electrician, so I do have some experience that I summarized in my introduction on the Welcome page. But I could tell you a dozen ways off the top how residential is different from what I did, and ever changing code has been a learning curve for me. So I really appreciate this forum and people who are willing to give time to help me sort that out.

I did use the red plastic inserts at each end of the flex conduit. I'm sure pros buy them by the hundreds, but it cost me like $1.68 for a bag of 20 or 30. And still I filed each end of the conduit to remove the sharp edges because I'm just kinda paranoid that way after some of the things I've seen shipboard. Had to push and shove to get the conduit to bottom out in the little squeeze clamp all the way. I didn't count 'em but I have some leftovers that I might need when we move to our new house in Kansas or when we start renovating my dad's house. I've used six of them now for the two electrical issues I had to fix (I also had to put in a junction box in the garage where there was a splice just hanging between two rafters of the old two conductor cable and new 12/2 Romex powering garage lights, and I had to move the receptacle that powers the washing machine because I already had plumbers relocate the washer discharge when we had our sewer repiped and the water supply lines to the washer relocated so that the washer and dryer could be side-by-side.

Like I said, I've found more issues in this house that I've had to fix than just this range extension cord and ground wires.

For new construction and remodel, yes code requires the appliances to be on their own circuits. But I'm not required to rewire an old house that's overdue for a remodel just to accomplish that.

As for getting an electrician to fix my problems, just finding one that's available is the hard part. I can't wait for a month to have somebody have availability to come fix my problems so that I can sell my house.

My friend you are right about you don’t have to bring everything up to code and it sounds like you have a good handle on everything and just wanted to vent some frustration and that’s what we are here for. Good luck with your project my friend and let’s hope your dads house is much better. If you ever need anymore advice or just vent please come back and we all will be here for you.

mytoiletsclogged · Jul 31, 2021

Venting some more--finding it hard to believe that everyone who sells an old house that has not yet been rewired either does everything I've had to do, or pays a contractor $175 an hour or whatever to do it for them--assuming they can even find a contractor with availability to do the work.

I'm quite certain the refrigerator is on a 3-prong receptacle that's ungrounded, and I have to make it grounded? So I have to either fish a ground wire to that receptacle OR put in a whole new dedicated circuit to a new breaker just for the fridge?

Again finding it hard to believe that everyone who has been selling a house these days is doing all of this.

mytoiletsclogged · Aug 7, 2021

UPDATE: I finished this tonight and I'll be a monkey's uncle if there wasn't a metal box there and one of the NM cables (that looks like original work) coming in had a ground wire that they had pulled back through a hole in the box and joined with some other ground wires and screwed it to the back of the box. So after I verified continuity to a true ground, I cut that ground wire and spliced a pigtail of bare copper to each for more length, as well as two more pigtails--one for the receptacle and one to screw to the back of the box. Not sure why they would have never finished this and just connected it to that receptacle before, but I'm relieved it was such an easy fix