Light switch wiring question

jl1306 · Oct 5, 2021

Hi all,

DIY homeowner. Any advice gratefully received.

I've recently moved in to a property. Electrics are of variable age including some old lead sheathed cabling, some back boxes of cast iron conduit type. Had an EICR done (I was at work frustratingly so couldn't ask questions as they went round). They've sent over the report which has a number of C2s but whenever I ring to try and actually speak to an electrician from the firm about it I can't get past the receptionist and the promised call back never arrives... Will definitely need some rewiring done but trying to work out how extensive (I had hoped paying for an EICR might answer that question but it doesn't seem to have done).

One light switch in particular is currently causing me grief. All other switches upstairs have earth wires attached (either to the back boxes where they have been replaced, or to the converter plates where the old cast iron conduit boxes are still in situ). This switch has two dimmer dials, with one dimmer part of a 2 switch system for the light on the stairs, and one dimmer controlling the bathroom lights. There is no earth that I can see - certainly nothing attached to the screw on the back box. Photo attached.

Should there be an earth or is it possible that the old conduit acts as an earth? I will be getting a professional in to do the rewiring and attend to the C2 items when I can (getting a tradesman out at the moment is proving challenging) but I'd appreciate advice on if this switch is currently safe.

Thanks

John

telectrix · Oct 5, 2021

it's quite probable that the steel conduit was used as cpc(earth). if it'sstill intact and gives acceptable resistance readings, can be left as is.

littlespark · Oct 5, 2021

Are you concerned about the C2's? That means there's something "potentially dangerous" and would give an unsatisfactory result to the EICR.

C2's can also be a little subjective, and depends on how severe the tester is. One persons C2, could be a C3 in another persons opinion.

If you can, you can post up scans of the EICR pages to the forum with any private details redacted... (ie, names, addresses, phone numbers etc.... of both you and the company)

I'm surprised there's no comeback with the company that did the EICR. Pretty poor customer service that they can't follow up a query

jl1306 · Oct 6, 2021

littlespark said:
Are you concerned about the C2's? That means there's something "potentially dangerous" and would give an unsatisfactory result to the EICR.

C2's can also be a little subjective, and depends on how severe the tester is. One persons C2, could be a C3 in another persons opinion.

If you can, you can post up scans of the EICR pages to the forum with any private details redacted... (ie, names, addresses, phone numbers etc.... of both you and the company)

I'm surprised there's no comeback with the company that did the EICR. Pretty poor customer service that they can't follow up a query

Thanks both for replies.

I'm concerned about some of the C2s and will be getting them seen to (new CU with RCDs, rewiring of old lead cabling etc).

Redacted EICR attached.

Zlodej · Oct 6, 2021

This report should have arrived with electrical danger report. As you can see the report says unsatisfactory and recommends rewiring. I personaly would have gave the bathroom lights C1 but C3 to the fan, but the point is that the Inspector considered your house unsafe (I am one of the stricter inspectors).
The next step for the inspector is to send warning in a written form (I personally use whatsapp for private houses as it shows if message was read) to inform you about the issues with your installation usually pointing main issues. When rented I tend to add electrical danger form to achieve formal look.
in your case it seems that there is a loot to do, that needs to be repaired.
Personally I would consider the unsuitable bathroom light to be of the largest issue here.
I generaly recommend using private electricians rather then companies as they have to be responsible for their own name.. Plus not all of the elsectricians in bigger compaanies have to be qualified or examined for the company to be certified, so you can get anyone.
Do not use trader websites (like umbelieveblyTrustedTrader.com) or facebook as best tradesmen are to busy to post there and the dogy ones can keep changing account on poor ratings,
instead ask about. If your friends cant help, then aks Plumbers for good electrician and electricians for a good plumber (they meet many and can compare them).

telectrix · Oct 6, 2021

i would challenge 7 & 8 for the downlights not being fire rated. no reg.says they should be (in a single dwelling).

Deleted account · Oct 6, 2021

I got frustrated at observation one.
he has listed 5 issues in observation one and C2ed it.

how I would have coded below.

blank missing. -C1
no RCD. - inadequate information, need to know a bit more to code. May not be C2
Plastic board. -More information needed, but not likely to be C2, probably just C3
poorly labelled. -C3 only
tails excessive copper. if just A little excess copper no code, but if more maybe a C2.

coding is down to the individual inspector, however when coding a reasonable amount of information should be given and to put 5 issues under one observation.…..

im not even going to continue reading the rest. Hope you didnt pay to much for that….sorry can’t finish the sentence.

littlespark · Oct 6, 2021

There's a few overly strict C2's in there.

1.3 Earthing arrangement of intake equipment. Its either there, or not. There is no middle ground (pardon the pun)
3.3 Provision of labels. How does not having a label make it potentially dangerous? C3 - improvement recommended.
3.5, 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 Again, all a yes/no answer. A tick, A C1 if not there, or a C3
All the C2's in section 4.....
4.8 and 4.10 should both be N/A as there are no RCD's
5.1 Should be a C3, its not potentially dangerous, its just not up to regs
5.4 There is conduit in the wall, so cant be N/A
5.8 Is ticked, but also mentions no earth at a pendant
5.12 No RCD's... Although a grey area, most electricians will C2 the lack of RCD just to ensure that something will be done about it, but technically, a C3
5.18,19 and 20 Either a tick, or a C3. C1 if the accessory is actually broken... (ok, C2 if the broken accessory has been taped back together)
6.6 C3 for non IP rated fittings in bathroom. If there's nothing electrically dangerous, or potentially... Any moisture will start to rot the wood in the ceiling before affecting the lights

And in section K:
Note 1. All C3. Except the excessive copper? If its within the consumer unit, then access with a tool... cant easily be touched, kits a C3. C1 if its outside the CU, and CAN be easily touched.
Note 2. If the MFT is in such a state, then there's no actual earth in the installation, this would be a C1 and would require immediate repair, or turn everything off.
Note 3. A pendant doesn't need an earth. Class II (Unless its a decorative metal pendant, but they don't say)
Note 4. Lead cable, no power. Is it dangerous? even potentially? I would FI this to ascertain why there is no power.
Note 5 Yeh... let him off with that one. Can't have a 16A protecting a 1.0mm cable.
Note 6. He says ALL switch backboxes old type, but your picture shows a regular (modern-ish) galv box. Also, you wont have grommits if there's conduit going into the box
Note 7 and 8.... Agree with my esteemed colleague above. Don't have to be fire rated if floor above is part of same property.
Note 9 A C3! This one's right,
Note 10 Unsupported cable.... yes, C2 if it can be reached and pulled.... Halogen type? Just a C3
Note 11 Yes.... A clogged up extractor fan can overheat and lead to a fire, so yes.. potentially dangerous, but a straight forward like-for-like replacement.
Note 12 No bonding. Wouldn't be a problem if.....
A) if there was RCD's, but there isnt... so it is.
B) All the pipework was plastic, or had plastic joints.

Some may disagree with me, and some may see things i've missed... but a lot of these have to be taken in context with the conditions as the examiner saw it.

Deleted account · Oct 6, 2021

littlespark said:
There's a few overly strict C2's in there.

1.3 Earthing arrangement of intake equipment. Its either there, or not. There is no middle ground (pardon the pun)
3.3 Provision of labels. How does not having a label make it potentially dangerous? C3 - improvement recommended.
3.5, 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 Again, all a yes/no answer. A tick, A C1 if not there, or a C3
All the C2's in section 4.....
4.8 and 4.10 should both be N/A as there are no RCD's
5.1 Should be a C3, its not potentially dangerous, its just not up to regs
5.4 There is conduit in the wall, so cant be N/A
5.8 Is ticked, but also mentions no earth at a pendant
5.12 No RCD's... Although a grey area, most electricians will C2 the lack of RCD just to ensure that something will be done about it, but technically, a C3
5.18,19 and 20 Either a tick, or a C3. C1 if the accessory is actually broken... (ok, C2 if the broken accessory has been taped back together)
6.6 C3 for non IP rated fittings in bathroom. If there's nothing electrically dangerous, or potentially... Any moisture will start to rot the wood in the ceiling before affecting the lights

And in section K:
Note 1. All C3. Except the excessive copper? If its within the consumer unit, then access with a tool... cant easily be touched, kits a C3. C1 if its outside the CU, and CAN be easily touched.
Note 2. If the MFT is in such a state, then there's no actual earth in the installation, this would be a C1 and would require immediate repair, or turn everything off.
Note 3. A pendant doesn't need an earth. Class II (Unless its a decorative metal pendant, but they don't say)
Note 4. Lead cable, no power. Is it dangerous? even potentially? I would FI this to ascertain why there is no power.
Note 5 Yeh... let him off with that one. Can't have a 16A protecting a 1.0mm cable.
Note 6. He says ALL switch backboxes old type, but your picture shows a regular (modern-ish) galv box. Also, you wont have grommits if there's conduit going into the box
Note 7 and 8.... Agree with my esteemed colleague above. Don't have to be fire rated if floor above is part of same property.
Note 9 A C3! This one's right,
Note 10 Unsupported cable.... yes, C2 if it can be reached and pulled.... Halogen type? Just a C3
Note 11 Yes.... A clogged up extractor fan can overheat and lead to a fire, so yes.. potentially dangerous, but a straight forward like-for-like replacement.
Note 12 No bonding. Wouldn't be a problem if.....
A) if there was RCD's, but there isnt... so it is.
B) All the pipework was plastic, or had plastic joints.

Some may disagree with me, and some may see things i've missed... but a lot of these have to be taken in context with the conditions as the examiner saw it.

Nice. You’ve got a lot more patience than me.

as you say different/inspectors may disagree with the odd coding, but I think we will all agree on this forum that this Is a very lazy, poorly written report.

Deleted account · Oct 6, 2021

Couldnt resist. I read further.

no insulation resistance testing done on any circuits. It was mentioned in limitations, but it’s pretty poor to not even attempt on any of the circuits.
I interpret the limitations as couldnt be bothered with insulation resistance.

Zlodej · Oct 6, 2021

while that is true I still think that we are confusing Non-electrician custommer here, Long story short There seem to be some repairs really needed, With no regards to Where we put C1 and C2's as long as they are there ,this house electric needs to be repaired.

Deleted account · Oct 6, 2021

Zlodej said:
while that is true I still think that we are confusing Non-electrician custommer here, Long story short There seem to be some repairs really needed, With no regards to Where we put C1 and C2's as long as they are there ,this house electric needs to be repaired.

I don’t know how the customer can make an informed decision based on the report that he has been given.
it may be he needs some basic repairs or he may need a full rewire. How can you know based on that report.

Electrics · Oct 6, 2021

Isn't the switch plastic and therefore OK?

Back box should be earthed though.

littlespark · Oct 6, 2021

CamoElectric said:
Isn't the switch plastic and therefore OK?

Back box should be earthed though.

Possibly is earthed, as the cables are in steel conduit according to the first photograph

Zlodej · Oct 6, 2021

Paignton pete said:
I don’t know how the customer can make an informed decision based on the report that he has been given.
it may be he needs some basic repairs or he may need a full rewire. How can you know based on that report.

You can reasonably know that there is some work needed for safety reasons, even if customer doesn't know how much work.
SO its enough to start getting other electricians in for job quotes which can be free and include aditional in-person info to help customer understand... The jobs seem big enough (issues in bathroom alone) to warrant quoting.

Light switch wiring question

jl1306

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