What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

HappyHippyDad · Mar 5, 2022

I have been asked by Trading Standards to carry out a report on some electrical work installed by another company (5 years ago). The 'new' wet room has basically rotted away over 5 years, it has now been completely removed by another firm and is in the process of being redone.

The work by the company being investigated involved changing a shower room into wet room. I.e a completely waterproofed shower room space.

The electrical work that the company installed was as follows. Would you agree with codes?

1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Further points

The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

Cheers all

[ElectriciansForums.net] What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

LukeD · Mar 5, 2022

Jesus...... thats beyond bad workmanship

nicebutdim · Mar 5, 2022

Looks as though someone almost half fitted a shower enclosure in a utility room.

Spoon · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

LukeD · Mar 5, 2022

Spoon said:
IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

Spoon · Mar 5, 2022

LukeD said:
Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

That's where my second sentence comes into play. Nothing in the CU should worry you and the CU should be safe.

HappyHippyDad · Mar 5, 2022

Spoon said:
IMO, you are only responsible for the circuits you are altering or adding.
If the CU is not up to scratch then this should be sorted before altering or adding extra circuits.

LukeD said:
Many would agree...but i am of the opinion anything related that worries me gets discussed with the client and noted

I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

Pretty Mouth · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Your coding seems about right to me.

HappyHippyDad said:
The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

I would say so, it limits zone 1. It's not like anyone can move it without getting the tool kit out.

HappyHippyDad said:
The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

Hard to say, what were the C2s?

HappyHippyDad said:
The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

No code - out of zones, and no danger as ELV (EICRs are AFAIK only coded for safety, please somebody correct this if I'm mistaken)

HappyHippyDad said:
There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

No code, no danger as ELV.

HappyHippyDad said:
lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

No. Supplementary bonding is required for ADS, and ELV isn't ADS (ie the metal parts of ELV lights aren't exposed conductive parts)

Petej999 · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I have been asked by Trading Standards to carry out a report on some electrical work installed by another company (5 years ago). The 'new' wet room has basically rotted away over 5 years, it has now been completely removed by another firm and is in the process of being redone.

The work by the company being investigated involved changing a shower room into wet room. I.e a completely waterproofed shower room space.

The electrical work that the company installed was as follows. Would you agree with codes?

1. Installed an IP45 extractor fan in zone 1 (see picture) - No code
2. Installed an RCD fused spur just the other side of the partition (for fan). You could in theory reach over the partition and touch the switch - C2 (This would be zone 2 IF we don't class there as being a partition - see 'further points' below)
3. Installed 2 x switched FCU's approx 60mm away from partition - could in theory get sprayed from shower - C2
4. Put washing machine and tumble dryer just the other side of partition, meaning they are in zone 2 (or zone 1 if partition not classed as partition (see picture) - C2

Further points

The partition is in place, but it is not very high. The diagram in OSG shows the partition reaching the ceiling. So perhaps I do not even class this as a partition? Is it a permanent fixed partition?

The consumer unit had some C2's. Are we responsible for this if we are adding to the electrical installation even though we are not working on the consumer unit?

The bathroom lights are just outside the zones (2.27m high). They are not IP rated but they are ELV. They are not fire rated and there is living space above. Any codes here? These lights are not IP rated so (even though they are ELV) would they be suitable for location. The company did not install the lights.

There is one ELV MR16 light just the other side of the partition which would be in zone 2 if the partition is not classed as a partition. Again not IP rated.

lastly, the bathroom lights have no RCD protection. Does this mean there should be supplementary bonding to the towel radiator from one of the circuits in the location? In theory they could touch one of the ELV lights and radiator at the same time. I believe supplementary bonding would be required as it does not meet the requirements for omission in 701.415.2

Cheers all

View attachment 95739

Anything you touch, alter etc I would think, of course if you are a switch on Bang merchant nothing

westward10 · Mar 5, 2022

Are they asking you to carry out a Report or an EICR. When I have done this sort of thing they want a factual report not an EICR.

HappyHippyDad · Mar 5, 2022

westward10 said:
Are they asking you to carry out a Report or an EICR. When I have done this sort of thing they want a factual report not an EICR.

oo, interesting, could you explain a little more the difference please Westward?

I think it is more 'me' that has suggested an EICR on the wet room, as I didn't realise there was anything else.

littlespark · Mar 5, 2022

At first look it doesn’t look great.

Your point 3… you say 60mm… is that right or do you mean 600? Which takes it to the next zone.

I wouldn’t class a shower screen as a partition. Although a thin frame with a bit of wet wall panelling doesn’t sound much more substantial.

A lot of kitchen/bathroom fitters will just fit an rcd spur to cover their work, and never even look at the db except to switch it off and on again.
Was any testing done? Certs available?

Is the light ELV, or SELV?

I think you might just have to do an EICR just for the affected circuits as you normally would, then write a page or two to elaborate on the specific problems.
Maybe avoid words like “should” and “must” and go with “may” on your report.

If TS are trying to get the company prosecuted, then your report will be evidential.
Can you honestly say what they did was against the regs at the time? Or their understanding of the regs regarding what a “partition” is?
.

westward10 · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
oo, interesting, could you explain a little more the difference please Westward?

I think it is more 'me' that has suggested an EICR on the wet room, as I didn't realise there was anything else.

Not done it for a while and your case differs somewhat as no one has died or claimed to have received an electrical shock. Reports I have done have been house fires, death from electrocution and people who have claimed to have received a shock in factories, the latter often chancers but in one instance they had a genuine claim. In your situation the fact things have 'rotted away' is irrelevant to the electrical installation so they are looking for an expert opinion to reinforce the claim over their incompetence. Personally I would compile a written report citing departures from BS7671, they don't want chapter and verse just facts and the possible consequences of these departures. You really need to know what they are expecting from you.

HappyHippyDad · Mar 5, 2022

westward10 said:
Not done it for a while and your case differs somewhat as no one has died or claimed to have received an electrical shock. Reports I have done have been house fires, death from electrocution and people who have claimed to have received a shock in factories, the latter often chancers but in one instance they had a genuine claim. In your situation the fact things have 'rotted away' is irrelevant to the electrical installation so they are looking for an expert opinion to reinforce the claim over their incompetence. Personally I would compile a written report citing departures from BS7671, they don't want chapter and verse just facts and the possible consequences of these departures. You really need to know what they are expecting from you.

Thankyou Westward, that's really helpful.

westward10 · Mar 5, 2022

If you are going to do something like this you must be 100% confident in what you are quoting but as I say you really need to know what they want.

Spoon · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

I can't find anything that says that you are responsible for the entire installation when you just add or alter a circuit.

Vortigern · Mar 5, 2022

I assume the fan is not ELV? I am also going to assume you cannot rely on the current edition of BS7671 but would have to rely on the extant edition in 2017. Which might put a different complexion on things. i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then. I can't see a shower screeen as a fixed permanent fixture. As it is possible to replace/remove it etc. Also the word partition means to set apart, which clearly the shower screen does not as it allows access to the other side. Albeit limited which would not be the case for a proper partition.

westward10 · Mar 5, 2022

An extract fan in zone 1 does not have to be SELV and this is where you need to be confident in what you are quoting.

littlespark · Mar 6, 2022

Vortigern said:
i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then.

But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was….

So that would mean any circuit in that entire room…. Whatever the room is…. Utility room?

Rockingit · Mar 6, 2022

westward10 said:
If you are going to do something like this you must be 100% confident in what you are quoting but as I say you really need to know what they want.

@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

Vortigern · Mar 6, 2022

littlespark said:
But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was

Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3

In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

littlespark · Mar 6, 2022

Vortigern said:
Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3
In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

I was just thinking that 18th edition came out 2018, so before that would be 17th, 3rd ammendment, and 18th introduced rcd for all luminaires. Bath and shower rooms was before that, and sockets that can be used for outdoor equipment was, I guess 16th??

Lister1987 · Mar 6, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

132.16 alterations and additions, you need to be sure that the installation is safe and meets requirements before making additions or alterations.

You WILL be directly responsible for anything you add or alter such as changing switchgear, moving cable around, adding in new circuits (and by ensuring other circuits aren't affected (a loose connection may have come out as you are pulling your new cables in), labelling etc), it can be argued you (as a competent person) will be responsible by proxy for ensuring the client knows that the state of the CU before and after your work, still needs work, that it complies but you HIGHLY RECOMMEND that it gets some care and attention.

By checking all connections after you've completed yours and advising that client of best practices, making the aware of any deficiencies in previous workmanship then as far as Reg 29 goes you're cover.

You went above and beyond your work to ensure your work hasn't negatively impacted the existing installation, you've made them aware of the present requirement for nonflame propagatibg materials and suggested some improvements, the rest is done to them.

Avo Mk8 · Mar 6, 2022

Rockingit said:
@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

I agree with above. It is getting into "expert witness" territory and will soon become that.
Presumably Trading Standards have asked for a report because they are considering taking legal action.
If that is the case, and they do, HappyHippyDad you'll likely be asked to be their expert witness, given you did the work that led them to take action. They won't want to pay someone else to do the same work over again!
With that in mind, there's guidance from the Justice Department on preparing an expert witness report (link below - see just section 3.2)

Obviously you are not at that stage now, but it might help picture what might ultimately be required.
I think the report requires narrative text to describe to non-technical people, in plain english, the "situation", your credentials, what you've been asked to look at, what you have found, along with your EICR as an appendix, not as the main deliverable.

Fortunately I've never had to attend court as an expert witness, but I've seen it can be a distressing experience. The defence lawyers job is to discredit an expert witness in whatever way they can, and the fact we're discussing this, and the technical issues here, may have already created a problem if the scenario I described at the start actually plays out

.