What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

Spoon · Mar 5, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

[ElectriciansForums.net] What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

I can't find anything that says that you are responsible for the entire installation when you just add or alter a circuit.

Vortigern · Mar 5, 2022

I assume the fan is not ELV? I am also going to assume you cannot rely on the current edition of BS7671 but would have to rely on the extant edition in 2017. Which might put a different complexion on things. i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then. I can't see a shower screeen as a fixed permanent fixture. As it is possible to replace/remove it etc. Also the word partition means to set apart, which clearly the shower screen does not as it allows access to the other side. Albeit limited which would not be the case for a proper partition.

westward10 · Mar 5, 2022

An extract fan in zone 1 does not have to be SELV and this is where you need to be confident in what you are quoting.

littlespark · Mar 6, 2022

Vortigern said:
i.e. no RCD for lights was not required then.

But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was….

So that would mean any circuit in that entire room…. Whatever the room is…. Utility room?

Rockingit · Mar 6, 2022

westward10 said:
If you are going to do something like this you must be 100% confident in what you are quoting but as I say you really need to know what they want.

@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

Vortigern · Mar 6, 2022

littlespark said:
But rcd for all circuits within a room containing a bath or shower, was

Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3

In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

littlespark · Mar 6, 2022

Vortigern said:
Not sure what edition we are talking, I guess 17th? Even for ELV lighting? Oh dear.
Errm yeha just found it 17th

Regulation: 710.411.3.3
In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower it is now a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including lighting and shower circuits.

I was just thinking that 18th edition came out 2018, so before that would be 17th, 3rd ammendment, and 18th introduced rcd for all luminaires. Bath and shower rooms was before that, and sockets that can be used for outdoor equipment was, I guess 16th??

Lister1987 · Mar 6, 2022

HappyHippyDad said:
I agree, but seeing as though this is for trading standards i need to give facts, not opinions.
Any reg numbers for being responsible for the CU once work has been carried out elsewhere?

132.16 alterations and additions, you need to be sure that the installation is safe and meets requirements before making additions or alterations.

You WILL be directly responsible for anything you add or alter such as changing switchgear, moving cable around, adding in new circuits (and by ensuring other circuits aren't affected (a loose connection may have come out as you are pulling your new cables in), labelling etc), it can be argued you (as a competent person) will be responsible by proxy for ensuring the client knows that the state of the CU before and after your work, still needs work, that it complies but you HIGHLY RECOMMEND that it gets some care and attention.

By checking all connections after you've completed yours and advising that client of best practices, making the aware of any deficiencies in previous workmanship then as far as Reg 29 goes you're cover.

You went above and beyond your work to ensure your work hasn't negatively impacted the existing installation, you've made them aware of the present requirement for nonflame propagatibg materials and suggested some improvements, the rest is done to them.

Avo Mk8 · Mar 6, 2022

Rockingit said:
@HappyHippyDad ...... My first thoughts on this aren't about the electrical in's and out's, it's about covering your own arse for any opinions you provide as this is borderline 'professional witness' territory. You need to have 'beyond reproach' qualifications and experience, insurance for professional indemnity.... etc. Saying this as a professional mate, not having a go! Overall, I'd say this was a job for a Scam engineer or a professional CEng.

I agree with above. It is getting into "expert witness" territory and will soon become that.
Presumably Trading Standards have asked for a report because they are considering taking legal action.
If that is the case, and they do, HappyHippyDad you'll likely be asked to be their expert witness, given you did the work that led them to take action. They won't want to pay someone else to do the same work over again!
With that in mind, there's guidance from the Justice Department on preparing an expert witness report (link below - see just section 3.2)

Obviously you are not at that stage now, but it might help picture what might ultimately be required.
I think the report requires narrative text to describe to non-technical people, in plain english, the "situation", your credentials, what you've been asked to look at, what you have found, along with your EICR as an appendix, not as the main deliverable.

Fortunately I've never had to attend court as an expert witness, but I've seen it can be a distressing experience. The defence lawyers job is to discredit an expert witness in whatever way they can, and the fact we're discussing this, and the technical issues here, may have already created a problem if the scenario I described at the start actually plays out

.

PRACTICE DIRECTION 35 – EXPERTS AND ASSESSORS – Civil Procedure Rules

www.justice.gov.uk

On the other hand I may be overly paranoid, and all Trading Standards want is a quick opinion, and not anything further

HappyHippyDad · Mar 6, 2022

Ok.. I'm now wishing I'd said 'no'

I've written up and sent a report in layman's terms, siting regulations where required. We'll see what happens and I will update.

loz2754 · Mar 7, 2022

Regarding the fixed partition -
The shower has no basin, therefore zone 1 extends to 1.2 metres from the fixed water outlet and further out from the partition (there is no zone 2)
as shown in the diagram on page 243 of the wiring regulations:

701.55 Current-using equipment -

In zone 1, the list of permitted equipment includes ventilation (fans), but not washing machines and tumble dryers.

123 · Mar 7, 2022

@HappyHippyDad are you at this job on behalf of trading standards etc, or is it because you have flagged up something or was there already?

I'd be very wary of getting involved in this, as a minimum check your Indemnity Insurance. Post #20 from @Rockingit has all that needs said about it though.

Personally if it was me, I'd pass on it

littlespark · Mar 7, 2022

Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not.

Why have I just noticed someone wearing glasses in the OP picture??

I swear they weren’t there before.

Lister1987 · Mar 7, 2022

littlespark said:
Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not..

I thought exactly this! Wonder if IET will ever put a note there about WHERE the fixed point is in relation to showers with hoses and not fixed heads? Some will argue the FIXED point is out the bottom of the shower unit (excluding hose and head), some will save it's at the shower head itself and should include the shower head and hose - this in effect will destroy the 2.25m limit on Zone 1 as (and I'm sure we've all done it as kids; if you point thr head at the ceiling, you can easily 'make it rain' by saturating the ceiling and enjoying the raining effect

.

loz2754 · Mar 7, 2022

littlespark said:
Another grey area with the regs….

Since when does a domestic shower have a “fixed” water outlet?
Ok, some do, but the majority are on the end of a flexible hose and can be orientated all ways.

If you’re going to say “I can put this here because it’s outside the zones”….. then check whether the shower is fixed or not.

Why have I just noticed someone wearing glasses in the OP picture??
I swear they weren’t there before.

The fixed water outlet appears to be the drain, not the shower head. See the picture I posted in #26.
From the actual regs book...

What are you responsible for when carrying out electrical work?

Spoon

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Vortigern

westward10

littlespark

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Rockingit

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Vortigern

Regulation: 710.411.3.3

littlespark

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Regulation: 710.411.3.3

Lister1987

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Avo Mk8

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PRACTICE DIRECTION 35 – EXPERTS AND ASSESSORS – Civil Procedure Rules

HappyHippyDad

-

loz2754

123

-

littlespark

-

Lister1987

-

loz2754

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