Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

JosephandAmber · Feb 11, 2022

Agent contacts me with an urgent request for a CU upgrade in Camden. They send over an EICR done the previous month and I have a quick skim. All seems pretty simple, CU needs an upgrade and some basic tidying of fixtures etc. Only 3 circuits so I'm not overly bothered about doing another EICR prior to doing the CU replacement.

Turn up to the property and within 10 mins I note there is no visible MET, nor is there any visible earth supply coming from the head. So I head inside and run some tests, again no earth. So I knock on the basement property and ask to test their installation, again no earth. Ok, so by this point I'm baffled by the lack of a main earth. So I called UKPN who send an engineer and he confirmed my fears, the property has never had an earth supply nor will they add one. As a result, he then issues all 4 flats with a Sec 26 ESQCR notice and turns off power to the entire building.

As you can imagine with 4 privately rented flats each with their own agents and landlords it kicks off. Turns out 2 of the 4 flats had EICRs completed within the past 3 months. One had a new CU installed. The property HAS NO EARTH!

Both EICRs were issued by NICEIC approved installers. Readings were recorded that could not have physically been taken. What is going on!?

Mike Johnson · Mar 24, 2022

A Government run scheme would have to be overseen by the HSE who are not set up to administer electrical installations, jobs for the boys come to mind, to set up such an organisation would take months of planning and special committees to prepare a report on how to set it up, then recruitment would start from within the Civil Service, first class honours degree a minimum standard overseen by a minister, but then the most essential part is setting up a committee to name the department, that would take at least a couple of years, any suggestions? I would go for Committee Responsible for Administration of Power Supplies or C.R.A.P.S.

Lister1987 · Mar 25, 2022

Think it's a bit unprofessional; ending an email with kisses

UNG · Mar 27, 2022

JosephandAmber said:
Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

Markyd said:
Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

As the NICEIC are a UKAS accredited organisation I would elevate the complaint to UKAS , at the bottom of the contact us page "I have a complaint or wish to give feedback about UKAS or one of UKAS’ accredited organisations" which gives phone and email contact details

Maybe it needs the UKAS assessment people to ask questions of the NICEIC I don't see how you can have a complaints procedure and not inform the person making the complaint whether the complaint is upheld or not. To sight confidentiality as a reason for not informing the outcome of a complaint is a bit of a poor and weak excuse when any complaint involves not only the reputation or lack of that the contractor has shown but also that of the NICEIC as they are the ones who have assessed the contractors competence
I just wonder how many more nails are needed before the NICEIC is dead and buried as a once respected organisation you can't live on your past reputation when the industry is now going to the dogs on the back of making a quick buck and no doubt a pay bonus for those running it

Petej999 · Mar 27, 2022

Lister1987 said:
They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Bad news for the NICEIC if it's true

Mike Johnson · Mar 27, 2022

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

Petej999 · Mar 27, 2022

Mike Johnson said:
Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

Oh no

Mike Johnson · Mar 27, 2022

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

Lister1987 · Mar 28, 2022

Mike Johnson said:
News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

It's not April 1st for a few more days Mike

UNG · Mar 28, 2022

Mike Johnson said:
News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

If only it was true

Mike Johnson · Mar 28, 2022

Only the members can make it happen.

Dustydazzler · Mar 28, 2022

Mike Johnson said:
Only the members can make it happen.

I would happily refuse to pay in a joint resignation / protest

Garyburger · Apr 5, 2022

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

DefyG · Apr 5, 2022

Poor Earth - Whatever that means, doesn't mean No Earth!

Surely an FI (Unsatisfactory) on the EICR?

Dartlec · Apr 5, 2022

Garyburger said:
I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

Garyburger · Apr 6, 2022

Dartlec said:
Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

Garyburger · Apr 6, 2022

Garyburger said:
Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

I did get the EICR

Garyburger · Apr 6, 2022

Garyburger said:
I did get the EICR

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

Garyburger · Apr 6, 2022

Garyburger said:
I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

DefyG · Apr 6, 2022

Garyburger said:
I did get the EICR

Presumably 'Unsatisfactory' if the main earth connection is dubious?

mainline · Apr 6, 2022

Garyburger said:
I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

UNG · Apr 6, 2022

mainline said:
But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

And a lot of those aren't worth the paper they are written / printed on
How does anyone lower their standards to get into these schemes

ipf · Apr 6, 2022

mainline said:
But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

It may be common but, let's face it AC, DI or cheapo down the pub, when talking EICR the most important word involved is COMPETENT (whether they are or not).
Are NIC insisting on AC's or not? Either way, it's not a legality.

I've been on about it for two decades, on here for the last one.
Started with PAT, on to domestic, then commercial and even industrial.
We see, in life and on this forum, an idea of just how rife is the rot. ....totally letting down and devaluing genuinely competent tradesmen.
It's a total disgrace from top to bottom....Part Pee stinks.

Mike Johnson · Apr 6, 2022

This happens in all technicians trades, if there is no official Government/Institute/association recognised qualifications to carry out a trade then there will be people who will take advantage, not really a surprise .

ipf · Apr 7, 2022

It does. A great deal of my early NICEIC work was contracting for local authorities.
Regular C of W was the rule. Now it's leave 'em to it. I watched it get worse in the 2000's when blokes supposedly in charge were coming to me for advice.

When I was a teenager, 'budget cutting' was a short back and sides.

Mike Johnson · Apr 7, 2022

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

If the local authorities insisted on a Qualification from a certifying body, this could all change, but the body would need legislating and assent by the Secretary of State to make it viable and not some fly by night organisation made up over a beer mat by a couple of blokes cashing in on the possible legislation.

Now lets think of a name for the body, suggestions on a postcard please.