1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

murd_the_nerd · Feb 24, 2022

Hi there

Complete novice electrical wise. I am refurbishing an old 1950s Injection Moulding machine and looking to replace the Power Timer Relays. So far with no success myself and two attempts. It appears I need some expert help. I would love direction on the type of timer I need and a link to where I could purchase is a bonus. Any help much appreciated. Details below:

The old Timers:

[ElectriciansForums.net] 1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

What I've investigated:

There are 2x Timers, one for inject and one for clamp
They are both the same, because I can swap them around and it still runs just fine
Markings still remaining on one says Supply 230 V AC and Rating 6A 230 V AC. There is no cut down in power on this machine, 240V throughout.
They appear to be short-circuit driven (not power on all the time and Start commands etc)
Power is only supplied when they run and is instantly straight through to the output
11 pin circular configuration
Phase to pin 2, Neutral to pin 10
Power into pin 5 and 2 makes the output run forever until short-circuited. I think I've heard this called an Inhibit function which allows the Timer to pause and force power through pin 6. In the clamp instance this forces the clamp closed, lets the inject sequence run, and then allows the Timer to run before cutting power and releasing the clamp.
Pin 6 is the only output. This runs to the 5/2 solenoid valves and changes the valve position for either inject or clamp
Timer appears to be a Power Off Delay or similar as it only tells it when to cut power off

Diagrams that I've mapped to help explain how the Timers work and current wiring:

If you need any more info I'm happy to provide. And even if you are just interested in the machine I can post pictures of that also

Thanks
Murdoch

murd_the_nerd · Mar 21, 2022

Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:

8 & 11 PIN PLUG IN MULTI VOLTAGE, MULTI TIME RANGE, MULTI FUNCTION TIMERS - Foxtam Controls (en-GB)

8 & 11 pin plug in versions of our multi “everything” timers. Available in either 8 or 11 pin SPCO or as an 11 pin DPCO. A selector switch is provided to select eight different time ranges from 0.1 sec-10 days, fine time selection on a selected range is then achieved via a percentage potentiometer.

www.foxtamcontrols.co.uk

If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

marconi · Mar 21, 2022

Small typo corrected in:

'Note well- as the panel is currently wired you cannot use any of the TR relays because your panel uses 5 and 6 as contacts to switch mains power whereas the T1/T2 relays uses them as input start timer function triggers'.

marconi · Mar 21, 2022

murd_the_nerd said:
Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:

8 & 11 PIN PLUG IN MULTI VOLTAGE, MULTI TIME RANGE, MULTI FUNCTION TIMERS - Foxtam Controls (en-GB)

8 & 11 pin plug in versions of our multi “everything” timers. Available in either 8 or 11 pin SPCO or as an 11 pin DPCO. A selector switch is provided to select eight different time ranges from 0.1 sec-10 days, fine time selection on a selected range is then achieved via a percentage potentiometer.

www.foxtamcontrols.co.uk

View attachment 96189

If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

Yes - on the 11 pin there is a set of NO contacts between terminal 1 and the circled in yellow terminals which could be used to control power to the clamp and solenoid. Your application relies on power being applied to 2 and 10 to start the timing function which determines how/when these contacts close and open. As I said we can rewire the base to use these NO contacts.

Finding a suitable replacement relay is not the current main effort - that can be done easily. What we need to confirm is what timer function is required when power is applied to 2 and 10. eg: Interval, delay on........

murd_the_nerd · Mar 22, 2022

Great, then I think we've done it pretty much!

Changes would be:

Change wiring as per 'After' diagram below if sticking with an 11pin timer
Use a timer that starts with power input to 2 and 10
Use an Interval type timer as my system continues power to input 2 past the timer ending (Interval was the only type I could see that lined up with this). I've updated the chart to represent what I'm seeing with the multimeter and ignoring 5. The flicker I eluded to before is likely the change from button power input to clamp sensor power input. And this is likely to not influence the timer as power still continuously supplied.
Don't mess with any gate or start inputs. You can see in the T1 Clamp wiring it is simply folding over power to both 5 and 2 at the same time. So there really is no need for it and all the modern timers I've found need a signal input, not continuous power to 5.

From my research this is actually far more common on 8pin timers. And they are about half the price. So there could be an argument to change the 11pin to an 8pin.

Example timing chart for Interval on an 8 pin:

marconi · Mar 22, 2022

I will study what you have said and then reply.

marconi · Mar 22, 2022

Your after wiring diagram needs a wire from the relay base 11 to the connector block 4 as shown in my attachment.

If you buy a couple of power (230V ac) initiated interval timers you can replace T1 and T2. If you are not sure send me a link to the ones you intend to buy and I will check they are suitable. Obviously they need to have suitable interval time range. The contacts only carry the small current to operate clamp and inject actuators. Up to you whether to go for 8 pin, 11 pin or din rail ones. Happy to check a photo before you power on should you want me to.

Please keep me informed on progress and DO NOT WORK on live equipment.

note: For power initiated interval timer if applied power goes off then interval output ends at same time.

murd_the_nerd · Mar 23, 2022

Brilliant! I thought the timer power actually supplied the output power. How silly of me. But according to your diagram each Relay in the Timer can have its own power and the Timer simply switches the NC & NO contacts. So you could actually have a set up like this and mix voltages and all sorts:

This has helped me greatly as I completely missed I need to supply power to the contacts! Thanks so much

I will get on to ordering some Interval Timers that function with Power ON and report back how it goes

murd_the_nerd · Mar 23, 2022

And I'm thinking of going for something like this. The 8pins really are more geared to the Power On Interval style and the 11pin options are less common and expensive! The 8pin option below looks like it will do the job just fine

One caution might be the 3A vs 6A on current Timers, is that something I should worry about? It is just supplying voltage to a solenoid valve, I can't imagine it drawing a huge amount of power.

Be thankful you don't live the next stop to Antarctica, things are hard to come by down here! The 8pin timer is in stock in Australia so quicker postage. I can get unbranded ones for $10-15 from aliexpress but figure I should get the real deal to be safe and postage can be up to a month.

AT8N
NZD$58

https://nz.element14.com/autonics/at8n-24-240/multi-function-timer-0-05sec-100hr/dp/1736815

Spec sheet:

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2010027.pdf

And the much more expensive 11pin option (and I'm sure others too):

TD-78121
NZD$216

TD-78121

Multifunction Timer, 240VAC,

www.galco.com

Great to be at this stage of the process and purchasing new Timers

marconi · Mar 23, 2022

I will check the specifications you sent me today.

marconi · Mar 23, 2022

The relay you have selected is suitable. Order AT8N . (Do not order AT8N1 or AT8N2 ).

One they have arrived we need to set up the timer range and timer mode for I = Interval operation.

You will require two 8 pin bases.

Study the connection diagram carefully for the AT8N so that you place the wires correctly to the 8 pin base.

The current switching capacity of this timer relay is satisfactory for your loads.

Also check by inspection and then with your meter on low ohms range that all items of the machine which are made of metal are indeed connected together and to the earth pin of the plug.

murd_the_nerd · Mar 24, 2022

Legend! I have bought the timers and bases. Will let you know how I get on

marconi · Apr 13, 2022

Greetings from London. I am drinking a New Zealand white wine which jogged my memory about your timers. Any news Sir?

murd_the_nerd · Apr 13, 2022

Nice one and good memory! I have received the new timers and bases. But unfortunately the family household I have my machine stored at came down with Covid so I haven't had a chance to do the wiring and install yet. Hoping to get over there in the next few weeks. Will keep you posted

murd_the_nerd · Apr 27, 2022

Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today

I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:

New vs Old timers:

Timers and relay wiring new vs old:

Wiring diagram from the timer manual:

marconi · Apr 27, 2022

I will study but I regret it will not be right now. I will look as soon as I can later today or this time tomorrow.

M

marconi · Apr 27, 2022

Just a quick question - did you select the correct timer operation mode - interval on or mode I?

murd_the_nerd · Apr 27, 2022

marconi said:
Just a quick question - did you select the correct timer operation mode - interval on or mode I?

Yep, I selected I (interval). It never got to using the timers though. So more a wiring or sequence issue I think

marconi · Apr 27, 2022

With power off and referring to any pictures of the relay wiring before you swapped for new ones just check you have moved the red wires to the new bases so they act as relay power or output contacts as necessary.

What do the top left and right lights do?

marconi · Apr 27, 2022

murd_the_nerd said:
Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:
View attachment 97046

New vs Old timers:
View attachment 97047

Timers and relay wiring new vs old:
View attachment 97048

Wiring diagram from the timer manual:
View attachment 97049

It is only for dc supply you need to connect plus and minus as in the wiring diagram.

Vortigern · Apr 27, 2022

Just a quick note to acknowledge your input here @marconi. Above and beyond the call of duty there!

murd_the_nerd · Apr 28, 2022

Thanks for confirming the +/- only being an issue for DC. No lights or anything on the timers because without the heater relay working the sequence won't even start. And power is only supplied at the time.

Hmm maybe a stuck sensor or something not to do with the timers at all. I will investigate in the coming weeks and hopefully have some good news!

murd_the_nerd · May 4, 2022

@marconi we have victory!

Turns out the new wiring of the timers was perfect. And the issue was with the heater relay itself. I found a loose wire, fixed that and then all worked perfectly. I don't think I can post a video on here so I've just snapshotted a picture here with the Clamp timer running and output live in interval mode. I can now see the indicator lights on and off during the sequence which is an added bonus with the new timers.

Thank you soo much for your help. I wouldn't have made it without you! How lucky this forum is (and me) to have you offer your expertise to problems like this

marconi · May 4, 2022

Thank you for the update and nice comment. Would you mind taking a video using your phone and then converting it to MP4 format - there are free converters on-line - and then attach it as a file - see below - for us to see the machine in action please.

Remember there is also the check of earthing and state of cabling to be done and any other mechanical aspects to confirm as safe.