MTerzi

DIY
I wonder if theres any good experienced electrician out there that can help me in enfield EN2 area with a problem. Im getting light electric shocks from all the taps (copper plumbing) in the house when i stand barefoot. even when the the main fuse is switched off. The shocks are very mild. I had an electrician come over but he couldn't fix it. The DNO did some test on the main power cable and the readings were fine according to them. If you are around Enfield please contact me.
 
The fact you are experiencing them with the main switch off and they are "very mild" suggests it could simple be the result of a TN-C-S supply where your house taps are bonded to the supply "earth" but that is combined on the supply (DNO) side with the main neutral conductor for the network (the 'C' in TN-C-S). Then depending on the load imbalance on the various properties fed from that segment of cable you might see 5-10V difference between the tap (on supply earth) and the ground (true Earth).

Obviously it should be checked in case there is something more serious or strange taking place as from my armchair in Scotland I can't divine the true situation, but the checks you report suggest that might be the case.

If it is the above and essentially "safe" (see * below) but still bothers you there are possible solutions but they are not trivial. One option is if there is the option for installing a very low resistance earth rod / buried mat to try and pull the DNO earth down and the local Earth potential up to meet it, but that is very hard to achieve if not part of something big, like a lightning conductor network or building foundation rebar that is bonded.

Another solution is to change the house earthing arrangement from TN-C-S (where it uses the supplier's earth) to TT where you have your own earth rod. But to do so also requires some analysis and changes to your CU (consumer unit = fusebox) as then disconnecting on a fault will almost always need RCD protection, and ideally that would be two layers to avoid any single point of failure ( see ** below), so something like a 100mA delay-trip incomer RCD followed by the usual 30mA "instant" RCDs for additional shock protection.

[*] There are cases with the combined protective earth/neutral (PEN) of the DNO breaks, and this is potentially dangerous as the neutral current from everyone on the faulted segment of the supply tries to find its way home by other paths, which can be bonded service pipes, etc. Inside a home the open PEN fault case is not too dangerous (though it can damage equipment due to over as well as under voltage operation, and overheat inadequate bonding conductors) but it is considered a serious risk for some outdoor systems, such as EV chargers where you might be washing the car at the time so wet, conductive, and on the true Earth. In those cases you must use TT earthing or fancy EV chargers that have open-PEN fault mitigation built in.

[**] The regulations allow for just a single RCD 'layer' so long as it meets the specifications for adequate disconnection. They also recommend that folk test them every 6 months just in case one fails, but hardly anyone does that.
 
Last edited:
It may be that you have no bonding on your water pipes. It could be there is some fault in the installation. What did the spark look at when he came? What did he do? Can you post pics of your fuse box and incoming power? In any event it seems that you (and family?) are in a potentially dangerous situation. Is it rented or...? Mmm forgot about it is the same if the power is off so default to (probably to you, no disrespect intended) incomprehensible explanation of @pc1966.
 
why is everybody's screen name preceded by a "@".
"I am not a number, I am a person" ?????
 
Keeping it simple and making some assumptions, if three neighbouring houses are drawing 40,50 and 60 amps at the same time then 17 amps will be flowing on the neutral that is common to all of them. Greater differences can result in greater neutral current.
A lot of properties have neutral joined to earth. This join happens before the main switch.
Earth is not allowed to be switched, so everything bonded and metal in your house is connected to the neighbourhood Neutral at all times.

(The Neutral will usually have multiple little electrodes to earth on the supplier side to ‘drain away’ a lot of this current.)

It can be it possible to ‘feel’ the neutral current in the neighbourhood on anything that is earthed.

It’s more likely when standing on real earth but not impossible inside especially in bare foot.( A common question is regarding feeling a tingle when getting into an outdoor hot tub - it’s exactly the same reason.)

While this set of circumstances might explain it it’s worth having another go at getting it looked at to be sure.
 
Could be next to some commercial/industrial units that are causing this through high draw equipment. I find it unlikely domestic usage would cause this, or at least very unusual. Personally I think the DNO may have missed something, it's possible. Although to be fair they do seem to know what they are doing when I see them in operation.
 
It's my own property and the DNO changed the main wire thats coming in to the property this morning but the problem continues. When the electrician removes the earth thats coming in from the outside it solves the problem but again that earth has to be connected. Please see attached pictures of the recently (moved outside) meter, fuse and the fusebox inside. If there's anyone in North London with experience that can come and have a look please contact me. Thank you.
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpeg
    1.jpeg
    55.4 KB · Views: 147
  • 2.jpeg
    2.jpeg
    715.1 KB · Views: 132
  • 3.jpeg
    3.jpeg
    204.5 KB · Views: 127
  • 4.jpeg
    4.jpeg
    223.2 KB · Views: 121
  • 5.jpeg
    5.jpeg
    401.7 KB · Views: 126
  • 6.jpeg
    6.jpeg
    414.1 KB · Views: 121
  • 7.jpeg
    7.jpeg
    512.9 KB · Views: 116
  • 8.jpeg
    8.jpeg
    378.7 KB · Views: 125
Last edited by a moderator:
You shouldn't be getting any shocks or tingling sensation, someone has missed the fault.

How long has the problem been going on?
Was the problem there before the meter was moved outside?
Has any other work been done inside or outside your house or at any of the neighbours or in the street outside recently?

Did your electrican or the DNO measure the voltage on the pipework?

Judging by the 1st photo at least you aren't paying for the electric for the shock, the meter is bypassed.
Where does the cable on the right go to, presumably the consumer unit (fuse box)?
Which cable did the DNO replace?
 
Last edited:
Bought the property last year and did a full refurbishment. The problem is only there when you stand barefoot on tiles or ground and touch the taps/radiators or water so it's very difficult to tell if the issue was there before the works. The problem has been going on for nearly a month now and yes the problem was there before the meter got moved outside. The electrician measured the pipework and can see that theres a low voltage 3-4 on the taps. DNO says that the readings of the main cable are just fine.
 
You shouldn't be getting any shocks or tingling sensation, someone has missed the fault.

How long has the problem been going on?
Was the problem there before the meter was moved outside?
Has any other work been done inside or outside your house or at any of the neighbours or in the street outside recently?

Did your electrican or the DNO measure the voltage on the pipework?

Judging by the 1st photo at least you aren't paying for the electric for the shock, the meter is bypassed.
Where does the cable on the right go to, presumably the consumer unit (fuse box)?
Which cable did the DNO replace?
So you are basically saying that the meter is not working cause the wrong wiring?
Correct.
DNO replaced the cable thats going from the meter outside to the fusebox inside (The cable on the right). We thought that maybe that cable was damaged during the refurbishment works but clearly that's not the case cause the problem continues.
 
As @snowhead says your meter is not connected to that outgoing cable.
Can you take the trunking lid off below the consumer unit because I suspect the armour of that cable is not earthed.
Thank you for the clarification and i do understand now. Please see attached. I hope the pictures are clear enough?
 

Attachments

  • 9.jpeg
    9.jpeg
    179.3 KB · Views: 113
  • 10.jpeg
    10.jpeg
    31.2 KB · Views: 110
  • 11.jpeg
    11.jpeg
    306.2 KB · Views: 113
  • 12.jpeg
    12.jpeg
    234.1 KB · Views: 121
If I wasn’t paying for electricity, I’d just put up with a slight tingle. Wear rubber shoes when on the tiles. 😄

Why have they connected it like that? Direct off the fuse, not through the meter?
 
I look after a Business Park & a few people reported a slight tingle when switching the light on in a corridor with a concrete floor. I did not experience a tingle. The only way I could measure the true voltage was by placing a wet cloth on the concrete with a metal plate on top. I tested between the metal light switch & the floor plate & I got around 4 volts. I changed the switch & it was okay. I guess the voltage was tracking through, although no visible signs of damage or excessive wear. The lighting circuit was on a RCD Protected Panel.
 
I look after a Business Park & a few people reported a slight tingle when switching the light on in a corridor with a concrete floor. I did not experience a tingle. The only way I could measure the true voltage was by placing a wet cloth on the concrete with a metal plate on top. I tested between the metal light switch & the floor plate & I got around 4 volts. I changed the switch & it was okay. I guess the voltage was tracking through, although no visible signs of damage or excessive wear. The lighting circuit was on a RCD Protected Panel.
Did you still get the tingles when the main power switch was switched off? Because that's the case with me.
 
The choice of a Hager board is good, but the installation of the SWA is awful!

Not only the really odd aspect of the meter being bypassed, but there is primary insulation exposed in the meter box and no apparent sign of the armour being earthed. Length is not obvious either, if it is under 3m so OK to directly connect, or longer so a switch-fuse should be there in the meter box (which would also allow an opportunity for a gland, as the metal CU did).

None of this would alter the OP's original issue, but it is a touch worrying to see.
 
The fact that you get the tingles with the main switch off means that your own installation is pretty much guaranteed not to be the cause. Post 2 by @pc1966 hits the most likely nail on the head, a difference between the incoming CNE voltage and local true earth. When you felt the tingles, were you standing on a concrete floor?

That cable from the meter box is utterly bonkers. Are you sure it was the DNO who installed it and not someone whose experience is in 'loft-based horticulture?' Armour floating, unsheathed cores exposed, Inadequate support, possibly no SF for >3m, and the minor detail of missing out the meter. Did one guy do the outside end and another the inside, so that they each thought the relevant meter was at the other end? I'm at a complete loss to explain it otherwise.
 
Last edited:
When the electrician removes the earth thats coming in from the outside it solves the problem but again that earth has to be connected
And theirin almost certainly lies the issue.I do not believe there is an electrical problem as such.The issue lies with the "high" neutral(several volts above "true earth,not unusual).As the neutral and earth are connected together in a TNCS system,the earth wire is transporting the neutral volt drop around the home.
Not an issue usually in modern homes but tiles on concrete delivers a much lower resistance than wooden flooring.
Inserting plastic pipes in the main metallic services may work but only if there are no class 1 appliances connected to the plumbing (which is unlikely)
 
No link in the service head.

Disconnecting the main earth at the CU apparently stops the tingles, but if there was no link in the head then it wouldn't make any difference as it would already be disconnected. The capacitive leakage on that length of SWA probably couldn't deliver enough current into the MET to be felt, when also shunted to earth by the CPCs of the rest of the installation and anything extraneous and bonded.
 
So then it is something the DNO have not picked up then. Need to get them back and get rid of the cable you or your "electrician" put in before they arrive. It is a crime to abstract electricity which is what you are doing.
 
@MTerzi are you saying the DNO installed that cable because if they did you need to be contacting them. For them to connect a cable like that is very bizarre, it isn't being metered.
No The DNO replaced the main wire but left the final connections to be done by the electrician that messed up badly he is coming in tomorrow to correct his fault with the meter.
 
And theirin almost certainly lies the issue.I do not believe there is an electrical problem as such.The issue lies with the "high" neutral(several volts above "true earth,not unusual).As the neutral and earth are connected together in a TNCS system,the earth wire is transporting the neutral volt drop around the home.
Not an issue usually in modern homes but tiles on concrete delivers a much lower resistance than wooden flooring.
Inserting plastic pipes in the main metallic services may work but only if there are no class 1 appliances connected to the plumbing (which is unlikely)
yes i got tiles on concrete in the bathoom and kitchen.
 
The fact that you get the tingles with the main switch off means that your own installation is pretty much guaranteed not to be the cause. Post 2 by @pc1966 hits the most likely nail on the head, a difference between the incoming CNE voltage and local true earth. When you felt the tingles, were you standing on a concrete floor?

That cable from the meter box is utterly bonkers. Are you sure it was the DNO who installed it and not someone whose experience is in 'loft-based horticulture?' Armour floating, unsheathed cores exposed, Inadequate support, possibly no SF for >3m, and the minor detail of missing out the meter. Did one guy do the outside end and another the inside, so that they each thought the relevant meter was at the other end? I'm at a complete loss to explain it otherwise.
Yes (wet) tiles on concrete floor cant feel it on the wooden floor.
 
Also if it'sa iss
Disconnecting the main earth at the CU apparently stops the tingles, but if there was no link in the head then it wouldn't make any difference as it would already be disconnected. The capacitive leakage on that length of SWA probably couldn't deliver enough current into the MET to be felt, when also shunted to earth by the CPCs of the rest of the installation and anything extraneous and bonded.
Thank you so much for the input. So only the DNO will be able to fix this? am i correct? Also can this be dangerous when we use the bathroom or shower?

The report that the DNO gave me says that the readings from single phase cutout are 252v 0.20 ELI Polarity was completed. They said that all the readings are how they supposed to be.
 
I think you need to clarify what is going on here.
Who installed the cable between the service head and consumer unit.
Have the DNO ever been involved.
Is this a new installation.
Have you done these works.
 

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Green 2 Go Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses Heating 2 Go Electrician Workwear Supplier
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Advert

Daily, weekly or monthly email

Thread starter

MTerzi

DIY
Joined
Location
London Enfield
If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
What type of forum member are you?
DIY or Homeowner (Perhaps seeking pro advice, or an electrician)

Thread Information

Title
electric on all the copper plumbing in the house
Prefix
N/A
Forum
UK Electrical Forum
Start date
Last reply date
Replies
38
Unsolved
--

Advert

Thread statistics

Created
MTerzi,
Last reply from
westward10,
Replies
38
Views
3,332

Advert

Back
Top