Creative light switch wiring

timhoward · Jul 28, 2022

I was working with a builder I know well today and he'd 2nd fixed some light switches.
All of them were spot on until I came to the switch either end of the kitchen to control the downlights.
My first reaction was "wrong switch - that's an intermediate - it won't work."
He said "Oh - I got it working!".

So I drew it out and had to concede this does actually function:

[ElectriciansForums.net] Creative light switch wiring

Then it hit me that all he'd done was essentially abbreviate this (as if there were a 3rd switch in one position):

I had to admit I'd never seen this one before and he in turn admitted it was totally trial and error on his part!
I thought I'd share this so anyone else who's led a completely sheltered life and not experienced this one wouldn't look as silly as I did.
(I changed the switch anyway, it requires too much thought left like that!)

Lucien Nunes · Jul 28, 2022

In the first drawing, there is no need for the junction of SL and grey to connect to L2. An intermediate is just two 2-way switches in one. The 2-way doing the work here is the one with L1 as common. The other 2-way that has L2 as common, is needlessly connecting the inactive strapper to SL. This has the minor disadvantage of increasing the capacitive leakage when off, as the strapper that would otherwise be floating is now connected. The 'Conversion 2-way' scheme where PL and SL are connected to the two strappers, also has this charactieristic, so this is more a theoretical objection.

Of course the builder could equally have put PL and SL in L3 and L4 and it would have worked just as well, in conversion 2-way form.

westward10 · Jul 28, 2022

An intermediate switch can be used for one way or two way switching.

timhoward · Jul 28, 2022

westward10 said:
An intermediate switch can be used for one way or two way switching.

It’s funny that I’ve just accepted the strappers are swapped over for all these years and never considered what was going on internally to do it….
It’s SO obvious now pointed out!

telectrix · Jul 28, 2022

we live and learn.i still finding somethng new at 75. my pertinent question is "is ther life after death, or is it just a con perpetrated by the church?"

Lucien Nunes · Jul 28, 2022

I raise you my own version of creative light switch wiring.

Supply loops-in and out via the switches.
Lights and switches are normal fittings.
All cables are SINGLE core.

This seemingly magical feat relies on combining two long-obsolete practices that you've probably never seen for real, but both did exist and perhaps someone used the two together as I have done.

Timbo · Jul 28, 2022

telectrix said:
we live and learn.i still finding somethng new at 75. my pertinent question is "is ther life after death, or is it just a con perpetrated by the church?"

Let us know when you peg it, Tel!

timhoward · Jul 28, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
I raise you my own version of creative light switch wiring.

Supply loops-in and out via the switches.

Lights and switches are normal fittings.

All cables are SINGLE core.

This seemingly magical feat relies on combining two long-obsolete practices that you've probably never seen for real, but both did exist and perhaps someone used the two together as I have done.

Assuming that the horizontal length between the switches is connected to Neutral?
I think the polarity at the lamp would change dependant on which switch was in use.

Please educate me about the two practises, is one of them knob and tube wiring / carter system from USA?

littlespark · Jul 29, 2022

I came across this a year or two back. T&E feed to switch, then a 3C&E up to light, and down to far switch. I then recall there was loop feed out for another switch as the 3 core was carrying a perm live and neutral.

I had to check at the rose, and whoever had connected it had removed the sheath and only cut the red and cpc. The yellow and blue were intact.

timhoward · Jul 29, 2022

@littlesparks The only regs issue is switched neutral ‘sometimes’ I think?

littlespark · Jul 29, 2022

timhoward said:
@littlesparks The only regs issue is switched neutral ‘sometimes’ I think?

Yes. Was my thoughts at the time.

Wasn’t actually working on that particular circuit, But had to have a look for myself.

Lucien Nunes · Jul 29, 2022

Yes one of the tricks here is Carter switching, where each 2-way sends either L or N to one side of the lamp. I think the NEC prohibited it as early as the mid 1920s, the main objection being that in one of the off permutations, both sides of the lamp are live, especially dodgy with ES lamp-holders.

But what about my single-core cables? How do both line and neutral get to all the switches?

timhoward · Jul 29, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
But what about my single-core cables? How do both line and neutral get to all the switches?

Was the whole circuit in series?!

Lucien Nunes · Jul 29, 2022

No.

Blah blah blah, my postilion has been struck by lightning

timhoward · Jul 29, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
No.

Blah blah blah, my postilion has been struck by lightning

Maybe I stand more chance if you can reveal whether this is a single phase system and which country you were in at the time?!

Pretty Mouth · Jul 29, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
But what about my single-core cables? How do both line and neutral get to all the switches?

Singles? Could it be that the circuit is using earthed conduit as a neutral?

littlespark · Jul 29, 2022

is the lines marked "supply" and "loop" just singles? How can you have a line and neutral if theres not one supplying? Unless Prettymouth is right and the conduit is being used as return path.

Lucien Nunes · Jul 29, 2022

Conduit possibly, but I actually had in mind a metallic-sheathed cable such as Stannos, which was used and recommended for earthed-concentric wiring. This was true TN-C where there is no separate earth and neutral anywhere, just a combined PEN via the sheath. It was a requirement that all fittings had threaded spouts, into which special bushes were screwed with the sheath soldered in. So every fitting was earthed and neutral connections were made to flyleads from the bushes, much like an MI earth-tail seal. It was very compact, a light could be fed from a cable around 4mm diameter overall.

littlespark · Jul 29, 2022

i kinda knew it wasnt going to be something straightforward.

freddo · Jul 29, 2022

littlespark said:
I came across this a year or two back. T&E feed to switch, then a 3C&E up to light, and down to far switch. I then recall there was loop feed out for another switch as the 3 core was carrying a perm live and neutral.

I've seen similar lighting wiring with supply cables looped at the switch connected as below, with the neutrals joined in the 2 way terminal. This worked fine for a few months but failed after it started flashing over and would sometimes trip the MCB when the light was switched off. The switch soon failed after the tripping started. The customer had replaced a Hager light switch with the built in neutral loop terminal with a normal (cheap) switch.

freddo · Jul 29, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
But what about my single-core cables? How do both line and neutral get to all the switches?

Here is my attempt:

I've only seen sheath return wiring once the circuit was mostly gone, just a few feet of 1 core imperial MICC feeding a 5A round pin socket. A neat system, shame it can't be used in most installations.

Lucien Nunes · Jul 30, 2022

Here is my attempt:

That is exactly what I had in mind. I try to encourage people to look at and think about some of these obsolete ideas to better understand why we do what we do, the way we do it. Earthed-concentric is neat and can be safe if the workmanship is sound, but cannot realistically be RCD-protected and is therefore obsolete for the wiring of buildings although standard for DNO work.

Small MI is great for concealment and single-core obviously makes the ideal use of its overall cross-section. There was also a reduced-diameter twin core 250V grade; a short-lived idea to make MI more convenient and economical for domestic work, only available in a few sizes. I'm trying to remember the smallest cable, possibly 0.187 ins. diameter for 2x 0.0015 sq. ins. conductor. If anybody has 'The Electricians Mate' to hand, please could you check that as I'm not near mine. Also what was the smallest overall diameter of single-core 440V cable, such as could have been used for an EC circuit? (there was no single-core 250V).

failed after it started flashing over and would sometimes trip the MCB when the light was switched off. The switch soon failed after the tripping started

Arcing L-N is another hazard with the Carter system and indeed anything that switches between supply poles under load (e.g. motor reversing.) OK with long-break tumbler switches and contactors but more likely with micro-break light switches.

freddo · Jul 30, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
Small MI is great for concealment and single-core obviously makes the ideal use of its overall cross-section. There was also a reduced-diameter twin core 250V grade; a short-lived idea to make MI more convenient and economical for domestic work, only available in a few sizes. I'm trying to remember the smallest cable, possibly 0.187 ins. diameter for 2x 0.0015 sq. ins. conductor. If anybody has 'The Electricians Mate' to hand, please could you check that as I'm not near mine.

So close! 0.182 ins. (4.6mm) Tiny considering its 16A rating.

Lucien Nunes said:
Also what was the smallest overall diameter of single-core 440V cable, such as could have been used for an EC circuit? (there was no single-core 250V).

0.157 ins (just under 4mm) diameter for 0.0015 square inch cable, rated 20A when exposed to touch and used for concentric wiring.

Lucien Nunes · Jul 30, 2022

Thanks @freddo.

For the 'younger reader', the sizes of imperial TRS and VIR singles were given as stranding and diameter, e.g. 1/.044 (one strand of 0.044 ins diameter) which is almost exactly 1.0 sq. mm. But MI is always solid-core and the size was given as CSA, with the equivalent to 1/.044 being 0.0015 sq. ins. Then as now, this was the smallest cable in general wiring use.

OTOH the matching of cable, glands and seals was done by overall diameter, not by number and size of cores as it is today (e.g. 2L1 cable requires RGM2L1 glands). Instead you would order glands with a number indicating the cable diameter in thousandths of an inch. So for the 2x 0.0015 250V cable mentioned above, the diameter was 0.182" requiring a gland size 182. You will find this 3-digit number on the cap of all imperial MI glands.

Going back to the Stannos cable I referred to earlier, which was an early metal-sheathed cable designed with EC applications in mind, I think it was around in the era of cable sizing in SWG, so the nearest core size was 1/18 (one strand of 18SWG) which is slightly larger.

-

-

-

-

-

Attachments

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Similar Threads

OFFICIAL SPONSORS