How not to standard is this rewire?

JimCee · Sep 10, 2022

Hi,
My son has just (last week) had a rewire done on his house in Leyland. He has just bought the house but a "domino" type consumer unit was spotted and so a rewire was deemed necessary.
He wanted to move in with his girlfriend and 2 month old son as quickly as possible so phoned a website to get electricians to call him with quotes based on the job being done ASAP.
Electrician gave him a quote £3000 and he accepted - work could be done the following week. The day arrived and was completed in the day by "a load of very young people" and the house was in a right state.
They have run 4 spurs in the house which I thought was pretty poor for a rewire and I don't know if this is to regulations.
But the real problem came when I was reboarding the loft. There were a load of chopped wires in the way of the boards so I pulled them back as far as possible and cut them further back. Whilst pulling the wires, the skirting board fell off. Behind the skirting board, there was a hole in the plaster board and an old fashioned connection block (with screws) fell out as did the ends of 2 conductors. One of the 3 wires that came out of this block was in the way of the boards. As conductors had dropped out, obviously an old wire I thought and so started cutting it with my electrical cutters and the upstairs socket ring tripped.
On investigation, the new upstairs socket ring has been cut, the earth conductors cut back - breaking the earth ring, the positive and neutral conductors having been pushed into the connector but not screwed down properly and the cable that I had cut - upon tracing was actually an open live cable - just lying under the loft insulation.
Looking round, the new lighting circuit has been extended - also by means of an old fashioned type connector block with screws in and taped up.
I was furious and phoned the electrician who between my rants told me that it was perfectly reasonable to extend the lighting circuit by means of a taped up connector block with screws to secure the conductors.
The electrician has given my son an electrical certificate (which I haven't seen and probably wouldn't understand) but on reading info on the internet, I cannot understand how he has done a test with the earth conductors on the upstairs ring being cut back at the loose connection block breaking the circuit.
The guy is coming back on Monday to "have a look what is going on" but apart from being outright dangerous with an open ended live cable, are the old fashioned screw type connector blocks acceptable - whether taped or un-taped, are spurs to standard and can I report this guy and if so, who to?
Thanks for any advice,
Jim.

davesparks · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
But why would something need rewiring if the wiring tested fine?

You can also flip this around and ask when poor test results would be a good indicator that something needs to be rewired?
The majority of poor or failed test results will identify something which requires repairing but I can't imagine a situation where test results alone would indicate a full rewire is required.

What test results would you be looking for when deciding whether a rewire is necessary?

swaRRR · Sep 10, 2022

davesparks said:
Because tests only tell you part of the story, they don't tell you much about the physical condition of the installation. Tests don't tell you how well installed something is, how many joints are in a cable, whether the cable is the right size. Tests can't tell you that the wrong type of cable is installed outdoors, the cable isn't rated for the temperature it's exposed to.

There are many situations where something could test out perfectly but be in desperate need of being replaced.

To give some extreme examples:
A circuit wired in un-enclosed single insulated conductors pulled through joists, chased into walls etc could easily pass all tests but be completely unacceptable.
Bare conductors clipped to a wall could pass all tests.
A 20mtr long cable with 7 joints in it hanging in free-air could pass all tests.

I understand this, but is it fair to make assumptions like the above just because of the age of the installation? Why shouldn't we then make similar assumptions if we're looking at a 15 year old install? Interesting discussion.

And don't get me wrong, if i see something that's clearly outdated i'd rewire it, i'm going to do that to my own home even though it's testing fine. Just saying if we go into a client that doesn't necessarily want a rewire, is it an automatic rewire just because it's outdated and we 'don't know what condition stuff is in' behind walls, under floors etc? If wiring tests fine and we replace like-for-like haven't we done our due diligence?

Risteard · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

If someone has requested a rewire then it's not for me to investigate whether they need one or not.

davesparks · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
I understand this, but is it fair to make assumptions like the above just because of the age of the installation? Why shouldn't we then make similar assumptions if we're looking at a 15 year old install? Interesting discussion.

No it isn't right to make assumptions based on age alone, but I never said it was did I? Nothing I said in that postade any mention of age.

I find it a bit bizarre that there seems to be a trend on this forum at the moment for using the age of an installation as a reason to recommend a rewire. Some of the installations I work on regularly still have plenty of imperial wiring in perfectly good condition and still in use.

We shouldn't be making assumptions about any installation, we should be using knowledge and experience to make informed judgements based on inspection and subsequent testing.

cireland · Sep 10, 2022

I'm thinking we might be getting off topic.
Guessing the OP has had enough and buggered off to do something better with his time.

swaRRR · Sep 10, 2022

davesparks said:
No it isn't right to make assumptions based on age alone, but I never said it was did I? Nothing I said in that postade any mention of age.

I find it a bit bizarre that there seems to be a trend on this forum at the moment for using the age of an installation as a reason to recommend a rewire. Some of the installations I work on regularly still have plenty of imperial wiring in perfectly good condition and still in use.

We shouldn't be making assumptions about any installation, we should be using knowledge and experience to make informed judgements based on inspection and subsequent testing.

I was trying to have an interesting discussion, no need to be defensive dave.

swaRRR · Sep 10, 2022

Risteard said:
If someone has requested a rewire then it's not for me to investigate whether they need one or not.

I'm more talking about when the installer says a rewire is needed not when one is requested directly upfront by the client.

Lucien Nunes · Sep 10, 2022

I think there is a bit of crossfire here where @davesparks is using 'testing' to mean taking measurements (distinct from inspection) while others are using it as shorthand for 'carrying out an EICR.' I agree with him that evidence to support an argument in favour of rewiring usually comes from the inspection. An exception from my experience was a church wired in imperial MI, which looked in good condition at its first ever EICR. However IR tests revealed that almost every cable run was catastrophically low in insulation and that there were hardly any intact seals in the whole building.

I also agree that there are situations where a rewire is requested or justified on strategic grounds that are independent of the condition of the existing wiring. I.e. that rewiring is clearly a valid approach even if the existing would give a satisfactory EICR.

Hopefully @JimCee will be back soon with the EIC

davesparks · Sep 10, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
Only an EICR will indicate whether rewiring is 'necessary.' I'll take a punt that one was not done.

I can't agree with this, you don't need an EICR to know whether an installation needs to be rewired.
Sometimes it is quite obvious without any need for detailed inspection and testing

freddo · Sep 10, 2022

davesparks said:
A circuit wired in un-enclosed single insulated conductors pulled through joists, chased into walls etc could easily pass all tests but be completely unacceptable.

Oh dear, that reminds me of that video of the 1 day rewire that was posted here a while back...

swaRRR · Sep 10, 2022

Lucien Nunes said:
I think there is a bit of crossfire here where @davesparks is using 'testing' to mean taking measurements (distinct from inspection) while others are using it as shorthand for 'carrying out an EICR.' I agree with him that evidence to support an argument in favour of rewiring usually comes from the inspection. An exception from my experience was a church wired in imperial MI, which looked in good condition at its first ever EICR. However IR tests revealed that almost every cable run was catastrophically low in insulation and that there were hardly any intact seals in the whole building.

I also agree that there are situations where a rewire is requested or justified on strategic grounds that are independent of the condition of the existing wiring. I.e. that rewiring is clearly a valid approach even if the existing would give a satisfactory EICR.

Hopefully @JimCee will be back soon with the EIC

I see both sides, i just wonder why, if wiring is perfectly fine, would we need to run in more wire? Seems wasteful in this day and age. If stuff's outdated and the wiring is testing fine, why can't we just update peripherals and other stuff, what advantage does running in completely new wire give?

Lucien Nunes · Sep 10, 2022

I can't agree with this, you don't need an EICR to know whether an installation needs to be rewired.

A good point; I didn't phrase that well, and partially contradicted it in post 58. What I meant was there is no simple rule of thumb along the lines of 'Wylex fuse box -> rewire is mandatory.' The installation must be viewed as a whole by someone competent to carry out an EICR, and in some cases the economics might indeed justify a full EICR, to decide the best course of action.

davesparks · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
I see both sides, i just wonder why, if wiring is perfectly fine, would we need to run in more wire? Seems wasteful in this day and age. If stuff's outdated and the wiring is testing fine, why can't we just update peripherals and other stuff, what advantage does running in completely new wire give?

If it is indeed perfectly fine then there is likely no need to replace it.

But if it is perfectly fine then the chances are that an electrician hasn't been employed in the first place.

swaRRR · Sep 10, 2022

I don't see how it can be obvious that potentially perfectly good copper cabling needs to be replaced with new copper cabling without any detailed testing of the wiring.

How can you possibly tell if copper wiring needs to be replaced without being able to see it and not performing testing on it? Makes no sense.

UNG · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
I don't see how it can be obvious that potentially perfectly good copper cabling needs to be replaced with new copper cabling without any detailed testing of the wiring.

How can you possibly tell if copper wiring needs to be replaced without being able to see it and not performing testing on it? Makes no sense.

It is very easy to sum it up in one word EXPERIENCE!!!!

davesparks · Sep 10, 2022

swaRRR said:
How can you possibly tell if copper wiring needs to be replaced without being able to see it and not performing testing on it? Makes no sense.

Why limit this to copper?

No you can't tell without seeing it, that should be obvious and I don't think anyone has suggested that you can make any assessment without seeing the installation.

My point is that you can often tell if a full rewire is required based on an inspection alone.

I'll take a domestic installation as an example.
The customer wants your opinion on the installation and a quote to change a couple of rooms to downlights, add extra sockets in every room because there's only 1 in each room, replace all switches/sockets with some trendy shiny metal.

You unscrew a few pendant caps and find imperial twin with no CPC.
The CU is a wooden backed wylex, a little bit loose on the wall as the wooden wall plugs have shrunk over the years. 5 circuits, cooker, ring, immersion heater, lights up, lights down.
There's 1 ivory single socket in every room with plate screws top and bottom.
Bonding is a rather skinny bare tinned conductor half-arse wrapped around a water pipe.
The immersion heater circuit has been attacked by a plumber to feed a shower pump and a replacement boiler.
The attached garage has all the typical DIY additions with round joint boxes and dangly cables.
There's probably even a greenhouse somewhere with a plastic twin socket on the wrong pattress and a rusty old tubular heater.

I'd go out on a limb and say that it's probably going to be better to rewire it than try to bring it up to current standards.

The lighting needs a cpc added to all points so you may as well rewire it as mess around trying to add a CPC.
The ring really needs splitting in to two circuits and by the time you've done that and extended to to all the new points there'll be so little of the original installation left that you might as well have rewired (plus it would be cheaper and quicker)

timhoward · Sep 10, 2022

@davesparks example was better than the one I was creating!

I never enjoy the question "do you agree that this house needs a rewire?".
For what it's worth, in my opinion the need for a rewire seems to more often come down to the degree it's been monkeyed around with and whether the intended outcomes would be more easily done if starting again rather than the age of the wiring or condition of the wiring.

Even poor IR results don't instantly mean a rewire as they could be low for other reasons. Faulty appliances, outside lights, and borrowed neutrals can very quickly make an installation look dire when testing it!

freddo · Sep 10, 2022

timhoward said:
I never enjoy the question "do you agree that this house needs a rewire?".

But do you think that the rewire needs to be rewired?!

It would be interesting to see the new consumer unit (I'll guess it's a BG) and the test results.

DannyC94 · Sep 10, 2022

James said:
The work in the pictures is shocking (pun intended)

if your son doesn’t want to share the contractors details with you, perhaps he could join the forum and post a copy of the certificate here with the details removed?

also, some advice is better taken from an independent professional than a family member.

This is the main bits of the certificate I got from him

DannyC94 · Sep 10, 2022

UNG said:
If you want a big job like a rewire done next week then you have to accept you are not going to get the best job because the guy's doing a good job are generally booked up for weeks or months in advance also the £3K price should set the alarm bells going

Tbf I would’ve paid more…but I got 3 quotes, 2 being £3500 & the third was this fella who said he could get it done in a day for £3150 - said he puts all his lads on it which is why he can get it done so quickly - but thought this was around the right price with 3 people quoting it.

freddo · Sep 10, 2022

This is the main bits of the certificate I got from him

Thanks for posting, there are a lot of problems with that certificate!!

cireland · Sep 10, 2022

DannyC94 said:
Tbf I would’ve paid more…but I got 3 quotes, 2 being £3500 & the third was this fella who said he could get it done in a day for £3150 - said he puts all his lads on it which is why he can get it done so quickly - but thought this was around the right price with 3 people quoting it.

No RCD trip times but all the test buttons operate???
No IR results.
Arc fault protection on EVERY circuit.
That certificate is as dodgy as the wiring.

James · Sep 10, 2022

Short circuit capacity of supply fuse 100KA.
seems like a made up number to me!
I am suspicious about some of the other test results, they seem to good to be true.

cireland · Sep 10, 2022

Is a '60947 type B' even a thing?
I thought main switches were type 1,2 or 3.

DannyC94 · Sep 10, 2022

cireland said:
No RCD trip times but all the test buttons operate???
No IR results.
Arc fault protection on EVERY circuit.
That certificate is as dodgy as the wiring.

Obviously my electrical knowledge is minimal so I just assumed everything was right - I’ve had a plasterer in already

Is there a way to test everything rather than having to rip everything out again?

How not to standard is this rewire?

JimCee

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