UK - LED Bulbs Efficiency

Deepgreen · Oct 25, 2022

Hello -

I am a new member (and just a UK householder rather than a professional) and have a couple of questions about domestic LED bulbs. I want to update many bulbs in my house and looked at the web sites of B&Q and Wickes. Both sites show bizarre variations in energy efficiency ratings for virtually identical products, and very poor ratings (E, F and G) for a large number of their LED bulbs. For example, at B&Q they have GU10 4.5w LED bulbs (non-dimmable) in cold white and warm white. The cold whites are shown as rated at F, while the warm whites are at A (see screenshots attached)! Surely this can't be correct? They also both show a wide range of LED bulbs with very poor ratings - surely all modern domestic LED bulbs must be in the A range? I asked both firms for their views - B&Q said they didn't know (!) while Wickes simply sent me a customer satisfaction survey in reply!

Thanks.

snowhead · Oct 25, 2022

The efficiency rating quoted is a measure of how well the individual device converts electricity to light.
It's efficiency is down to quality / design of the electronics and the quality / design of the reflector / enclosure, there's plenty of scope for variation beteween individual devices and manufacturers.

That's not the same as the comparison of how well LED lamps in general compare to older halogen, etc, lamps.

Deepgreen · Oct 25, 2022

snowhead said:
The efficiency rating quoted is a measure of how well the individual device converts electricity to light.
It's efficiency is down to quality / design of the electronics and the quality / design of the reflector / enclosure, there's plenty of scope for variation beteween individual devices and manufacturers.

That's not the same as the comparison of how well LED lamps in general compare to older halogen, etc, lamps.

Thanks for the quick reply. Given that the products are identical and from the same manufacturer at the same time, with identical specifications except for colour temperature, would you really expect one to be at A rating and the other at F?

UNG · Oct 25, 2022

Deepgreen said:
Thanks for the quick reply. Given that the products are identical and from the same manufacturer at the same time, with identical specifications except for colour temperature, would you really expect one to be at A rating and the other at F?

So many websites are left lacking on the technical product detail at times mainly IMO because either the website designer has a limited technical knowledge of the product or product type or they have been given the incorrect details by a non technical sales person and neither have noticed the inconsistant infomation

brianmoooore · Oct 25, 2022

A month ago, I bought a new fridge/freezer, and while selecting the one I wanted, was appalled by the low efficiency ratings that most had. A bit of research found that the classifications had recently been changed, and that a model that was previously 'A' rated was now classified as 'E'.
I think you may have just found old packaging and new packaging.

brianmoooore · Oct 25, 2022

The filament style LED lamps are more efficient than the sort where part of the globe is opaque plastic and the other part transparent, by around 10%.
This could be nearer 200% if the manufacturers were allowed to. Google Philips Dubai led.

Deepgreen · Oct 25, 2022

UNG said:
So many websites are left lacking on the technical product detail at times mainly IMO because either the website designer has a limited technical knowledge of the product or product type or they have been given the incorrect details by a non technical sales person and neither have noticed the inconsistant infomation

Yes - what I also should mention is that at least one product has a summary rating (the one shown on the web page by the product) of F, while the accompanying detailed specification/product sheet (which has to be clicked on to read) for the same item says it is A! I also must say that I have noticed a very similar set of discrepancies to the B&Q ones on the Wickes site for their LED bulbs. I am coming to suspect that the manufacturer's information is wrong (Chinese?) and that both firms have simply taken them at face value, which is pretty poor. I would expect all LED lighting products to have a very good efficiency rating, and I certainly wouldn't expect identical ones (except for their colour temperature) to have ratings at each extreme of the spectrum!

snowhead · Oct 25, 2022

Deepgreen said:
and I certainly wouldn't expect identical ones (except for their colour temperature) to have ratings at each extreme of the spectrum!

It depends how the ratings are set.
It could be for LED regardless of colour temp.
or it could be for each colour temp.

The efficiency result could be different depending on the efficiency test.

brianmoooore · Oct 25, 2022

As I've already written, in the OPs case, old packaging and new packaging.

Avo Mk8 · Oct 25, 2022

The transition from 'old' labelling to 'new' labelling is described on the (random) web page below, along with how the calculations are done.

Old vs. New EU Energy Label for Light Sources

Comparison of the new EU energy label (A to G, from September 2021) for LEDs and other lamps with the old energy label ranging from A++ to…

mickbitsoftware.medium.com

They have changed the 'granularity' of the scale so that small variations in LED efficiency show up as a larger change in the category, so I feel one gets an overly pessimistic view of energy efficiency for some.
I don't think there is enough difference between brands to make energy rating the main buying criteria - but happy to be proved wrong.
I would be more concerned about lifetime/reliability, which seem to be gleaned through experience rather than manufacturers claims. For example, for spotlights in a lofty ceiling where access is difficult, I use Philips, not Diall or Tesco's.

brianmoooore · Oct 25, 2022

The link above says that there shouldn't be ANY LEDs classified as A or B, until future development produces some, so, to me, that confirms that the A rated ones in the OPs pic are old packaging.

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

brianmoooore said:
The link above says that there shouldn't be ANY LEDs classified as A or B, until future development produces some, so, to me, that confirms that the A rated ones in the OPs pic are old packaging.

OK, thanks. It isn't the packaging that I am looking at, just their web site. I have asked B&Q why they have such misleading, and often wrong, information, but I expect nothing of use from them, given their responses so far. As I previously said, at least one item (and I suspect many more) has the detailed on-line spec. sheet showing A, while the on-line (same page) summary for the same item shows F! To draw a comparison - say I buy a car that is sold, according to the advertising blurb with 100mpg, but when I look at the owner's detailed manual it tells me it achieves 40mpg (or even vice versa).

Anyway, I have put the case to Trading Standards to see what they say. At the moment, at the very least, it's a minefield of confusing and conflicting (and downright wrong) information which does nothing to help people decide to switch to LED. BTW, so far, B&Q have repeatedly told me to take it up with my local store (which is utterly missing the point that it is the web site that is the issue, not the local store!) while Wickes have simply sent me a Customer Satisfaction survey without mentioning the issue raised at all! A pretty grim reflection on both firms' customer services quality.

Many thanks to all for your responses.

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

Avo Mk8 said:
The transition from 'old' labelling to 'new' labelling is described on the (random) web page below, along with how the calculations are done.

Old vs. New EU Energy Label for Light Sources

Comparison of the new EU energy label (A to G, from September 2021) for LEDs and other lamps with the old energy label ranging from A++ to…

mickbitsoftware.medium.com

They have changed the 'granularity' of the scale so that small variations in LED efficiency show up as a larger change in the category, so I feel one gets an overly pessimistic view of energy efficiency for some.
I don't think there is enough difference between brands to make energy rating the main buying criteria - but happy to be proved wrong.
I would be more concerned about lifetime/reliability, which seem to be gleaned through experience rather than manufacturers claims. For example, for spotlights in a lofty ceiling where access is difficult, I use Philips, not Diall or Tesco's.

Good points. I have recently installed some Wickes LED GU10s, and one has already failed. Of course I threw the receipt away after a few weeks so they get away with poor quality being unchallenged. For all bulbs I buy from now on I will keep the receipts and make sure they honour their life-time promises.

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

Here's another one - a Wickes product, scoring only E but described as "energy-efficient" in the blurb. If I'm a customer who is unaware of the apparently very finely granulated new efficiency scale it makes no sense - it can't be both near the bottom of the efficiency scale and energy-efficient!

Avo Mk8 · Oct 27, 2022

Deepgreen said:
Here's another one - a Wickes product, scoring only E but described as "energy-efficient" in the blurb. It can't be both!

Yes it can - with the revised LED figures. E is quite good. Not the same 'E' that is applied to fridges etc. or Energ Efficiency of houses! I mean if you have in your head that D and E are poor figures, they are still very efficient figures for lighting, compared with halogen or CFL etc. It allows for even more efficient lighting to come along in due course.

This is my take on LED efficiency ratings:
I think the best you are likely to get at the moment is a 'C', ranging down to 'F' and 'G' for poor!
Any claims for A++ etc are the old ratings pre-2021, and should have been updated.
There's info about those new ratings in the link I posted.

brianmoooore · Oct 27, 2022

Deepgreen said:
Good points. I have recently installed some Wickes LED GU10s, and one has already failed.

Of the few hundreds of LEDs I've installed (none of which came from Wickes), the few that have failed prematurely, have done so on first switch on or in the first few hours of life. Once past that point, most live to, or exceed, their rated life.
Don't worry about the receipt - take it back anyway. Good customer service reviews are essential to this kid of retail shed.

brianmoooore · Oct 27, 2022

Avo Mk8 said:
Yes it can - with the revised LED figures. E is quite good. Not the same 'E' that is applied to fridges etc.

The scale for fridges etc. has been revised as well. 'E' is now quite an efficient model.

Avo Mk8 · Oct 27, 2022

brianmoooore said:
The scale for fridges etc. has been revised as well. 'E' is now quite an efficient model.

Cool

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

Avo Mk8 said:
Yes it can - with the revised LED figures. E is quite good. Not the same 'E' that is applied to fridges etc. or Energ Efficiency of houses!

This is my take on LED efficiency ratings:
I think the best you are likely to get at the moment is a 'C', ranging down to 'F' and 'G' for poor!
Any claims for A++ etc are the old ratings pre-2021, and should have been updated.
There's info about those new ratings in the link I posted.

That's my point - the average person will not know the details of the new scale (or even that there IS a new scale) and will assume it's a poor energy rating. There is no explanation anywhere on these firms' web sites of the scales so we are left to assume a product near the bottom of the scale is not good. Just a mess of confusion for customers.

Avo Mk8 · Oct 27, 2022

Deepgreen said:
That's my point - the average person will not know the details of the new scale (or even that there IS a new scale) and will assume it's a poor energy rating. There is no explanation anywhere on these firms' web sites of the scales so we are left to assume a product near the bottom of the scale is not good. Just a mess of confusion for customers.

But that's surely the idea (I don't mean the confusion). I mean surely it will influence the public to buy more energy efficient versions, even if they don't have an understanding of the ratings! Or to look at it another way, to persuade manufacturers to produce more efficient lamps, so improving (or at least maintaining) their sales compared with their competitors?

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

brianmoooore said:
Of the few hundreds of LEDs I've installed (none of which came from Wickes), the few that have failed prematurely, have done so on first switch on or in the first few hours of life. Once past that point, most live to, or exceed, their rated life.
Don't worry about the receipt - take it back anyway. Good customer service reviews are essential to this kid of retail shed.

This Wickes bulb was fine at first and now sometimes comes on at a very dim level (almost impossible to tell it's on) and sometimes at full brightness. I have checked the fitting and all is well there, so the bulb is faulty.

BTW, good customer service appears to be far from the top of Wickes's priorities as they ignored my query and just sent me a 'how did we do?' satisfaction survey instead! B&Q's customer service people similarly failed to address my query and twice simply directed me to my local store, which was completely pointless! These "sheds", as you rightly call them, are just that - widespread and convenient, and very unconcerned about individual reviews (which are always subject to doubt anyway) - there is a constant stream of customers out there who just go there because their outlets are everywhere. It's a common feature of UK retailing these days, sadly.

Deepgreen · Oct 27, 2022

Avo Mk8 said:
But that's surely the idea - to persuade the public to buy more energy efficient versions, even if they don't have an understanding of the ratings! Or to look at it another way, to persuade manufacturers to produce more efficient lamps, so improving (or at least maintaining) their sales compared with their competitors?

I think we may be at cross purposes here - my take on it is that, playing devil's advocate, if I see a product with a low rating (on whatever scale is being used at the time) I will assume it is not good and will avoid it (especially in the absence of any explanation of the scale). Thus, I may well stick with my existing halogen, fluorescent or whatever type, rather than change to LED. I am sure most average customers have no idea there is a special rating scale for LEDs or that it has changed recently (I certainly didn't), and that there are seemingly different scales for other electrical products. In short (again, playing devil's advocate) - I see an E or F rating and am not interested.

Avo Mk8 · Oct 27, 2022

Deepgreen said:
I think we may be at cross purposes here - my take on it is that, playing devil's advocate, if I see a product with a low rating (on whatever scale is being used at the time) I will assume it is not good and will avoid it (especially in the absence of any explanation of the scale). Thus, I may well stick with my existing halogen, fluorescent or whatever type, rather than change to LED. I am sure most average customers have no idea there is a special rating scale for LEDs or that it has changed recently (I certainly didn't), and that there are seemingly different scales for other electrical products. In short (again, playing devil's advocate) - I see an E or F rating and am not interested.

Fair enough. But if everyone does behave like that, a manufacturer who sticks with E or F won't make any sales, so those products disappear. Which I would argue is a good thing (as long as someone is making C or D versions!)

brianmoooore · Oct 27, 2022

The idea is to encourage the improvement of the breed. In my post #5, I started my search for a fridge freezer intending to buy one with a A or B rating, like the last one I bought (I buy for 5 properties, so I'm in the market for one a bit more often than the average person), but found that there were very, very few available with this rating, especially at a price that I was interested in.
That's when i did a little digging, and found that E was the new B.
I expect that by the next time I buy one, there'll by fewer 'E's and a lot more 'A's and 'B's

suffolkspark · Oct 27, 2022

Just to add for bulb/lamp labelling, some places seem to have recently switched the naming convention were all used to with regards to colour temperature, with some 4000k lamps/bulbs now being described as daylight, and 6000k being described as cool white! Toolstation had some integral branded 4000k called cool white, and a 5 pack 4000k called daylight ! Annoying. I kniw ledhut used to do this but now its getting more common

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