AFDD EICR - unsatisfactory report landlord

newfutile said:

. I wonder if SPD’s are fitted and that attracted a C2 code ?

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SPDs are not fitted and it has been coded C3. (Post #2)
I too would code lack of AFDDs as C3, and lack of SPDs as C3.

Edit: any new work planned as an alteration or addition to an affected circuit could not proceed unless the AFDD was installed.
So this could add weight to your decision to just go ahead and get the AFDDs fitted anyway.

newfutile said:

I wonder if SPD’s are fitted and that attracted a C2 code

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They are not fitted, and got a C3!

Rockingit said:

There's an interesting aspect to this....... So they've picked on AFDD's as non-compliant for a HRRB, but not use of AC type RCD's in a domestic. So much inconsistency here.

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Yes, I thought that too.

Smem18 said:

It’s clear reading this thread there are differences in opinion on this matter between electricians, making it very hard to navigate.

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EICR's are primarily supposed to be about assessing safety. @davesparks sums it up very well above.
Generally C2 codes are supposed to be for where if one more thing happened you would be one step away from serious injury or fatalities being likely.
AFDD's (while now mandated for some new installations) are an additional safety feature to reduce the risk of fires due to electrical faults. Not having one would not be judged potentially dangerous for most pragmatic seasoned electricians unless there were things observed in the inspection that increased risks.

One other comment - you are not obliged to use the same firm to fix this.
You can get as many quotes as you like to fit Hager AFDDs to the socket circuits, and choose one you like. All you need according to the PRS legislation is evidence that the work is done, and an invoice clipped to the original EICR would achieve that, or even some photos.

Section 5 of the ‘Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020’ states that where remedial work is required following an EICR report a private landlord must obtain written confirmation from a qualified person that the further investigative or remedial work has been carried out and that (i)the electrical safety standards are met; or (ii)further investigative or remedial work is required.

Having just been doing some surfing on Hager stuff, it seems that rather annoyingly their AFDD MCB's are double width, whereas their AFDD RCBO's are single. So anyone with a split board that needs modifying is totally stuffed unless you happen to have a load of spare ways and an installer with the skills and spares kit to modify it around.

Rockingit said:

For what it's worth...... if this was me, I'd be giving a C3, because......

Is it imminently or potentially dangerous = No
Is it currently compliant = No
Can it / should it be corrected in the future = Yes

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So I have got a second opinion off 4 other electricians now and sent them the report. They all unanimously, and without hesitation, said they would grade it C3. I followed this up with a call to the NIC EIC (national inspection council for electrical installations) and they said it should catagorically be a C3 even though the building is over 18 meters.

Attached is the quote the company sent me for the works which seems very high. I asked for the cheapest way possible to bring it to regulations

Smem18 said:

So I have got a second opinion off 4 other electricians now and sent them the report. They all unanimously, and without hesitation, said they would grade it C3. I followed this up with a call to the NIC EIC (national inspection council for electrical installations) and they said it should catagorically be a C3 even though the building is over 18 meters.

Attached is the quote the company sent me for the works which seems very high. I asked for the cheapest way possible to bring it to regulations

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Utter wrip-off nonsense, in my opinion.

I'd be tempted to go back to the inspecting company and ask them to put in writing the inspector's justification for a C2 coding when after a discussion with the NICEIC you've been advised that should only be a C3.... bet you get an amended report out of it.

Rockingit said:

Utter wrip-off nonsense, in my opinion.

I'd be tempted to go back to the inspecting company and ask them to put in writing the inspector's justification for a C2 coding when after a discussion with the NICEIC you've been advised that should only be a C3.... bet you get an amended report out of it.

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We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

Smem18 said:

We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

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Hello everyone, in case this helps anyone else: we have had the original certificate overturned and now have been issued a satisfactory certificate within an hour of calling them and sending an email to follow-up the call. We quoted what the NIC EIC about the issue being catagorically a C3 not a C2 issue, I called them up on the fact they have misquoted the British Standard to include appliances when it is sockets only and quoted us for 5x AFDD's when only 2x are required to bring it up to standard (I had specifically asked for them to quote me the minimum required to bring it to safe standard and they ignored that), I expressed deep disappointment the electrician told me everything was fine and passed in-person but then I received an unsatisfactory report late at night - so I had no chance to quiz him or ask questions, and finally I explained we had got a second opinion off 4 other electricians who all unanimously told us it should be a C3 rating.

Ultimately this company has missed out on some busines from us as we plan to get the advisories done (on just the sockets that actually require them as per the BS 421.1.7!) so that we are up to speed, everything is safe, and don't have the issue in the future. But we will do this by getting competing quotations and without the artificial 28 day deadline pressure and panic (else potential £30k fine) they put us under. If they had just been transparent and spoken to me about the various options we probably would have booked them there and then to do it, but instead sent the most expensive possible solution in an email despite my requests otherwise.

Smem18 said:

We have looked up the building regs now as well and worked out they have misquoted them slightly. They have said british standard 421.1.7...no provision of AFDDs on circuits supplying sockets and applicances. The british standard only quotes "AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets...". They have added "appliances" on, which the british standard does not mention. We therefore think their quote of 5x AFDDs is excessive and calculate we think we only need 2. I explictly asked the quotation to be the minimum to bring it up to standard so am not happy about that. I have done exactly as you suggested and quoted what NIC told us to them to see what their response is

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I was just to about mention this "addition" of appliances to the wording of 421.1.7
This is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst.

I would however point out that there are 3 circuits that feed sockets, not 2. The fridge and freezer circuit and 2 sockets circuits.
Unless the fridge and freezer are hard wired.

loz2754 said:

I was just to about mention this "addition" of appliances to the wording of 421.1.7
This is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst.

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Yes I am of the belief this company just has a blanket policy to do this to landlords in high rise buildings and send them the most expensive solution possible, as I explicitly asked them for (sorry) cheapest way to bring it to standard and even quoted some of the nice people in this forums suggestions and asked "please explore all avenues for a solution and come back to me with the most cost effective" and they simply just sent me the quotation for everything, even the C3 issue.

The survey was quite cheap so lesson learned. I had a lovely guy saved in my phone who came highly recommended on check a trade, but he wasn't available the day I needed to I panicked as needed to get it done and booked this big company who didn't have many reviews ("national surveyors"). The local electrician in my phone was £150 for the report and national surveyors was £89. I always like to go with local recommended tradespeople who you can actually have a conversation with and will take care of you start to finish and this is why (I am renovating a house elesewhere and all contractors have been local and its been great)

loz2754 said:

I would however point out that there are 3 circuits that feed sockets, not 2. The fridge and freezer circuit and 2 sockets circuits.
Unless the fridge and freezer are hard wired.

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Fridge and freezer are hard wired

Smem18 said:

The local electrician in my phone was £150 for the report and national surveyors was £89.

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Both of those are too cheap for a full EICR in my opinion. I am in the Midlands. I charge a minimum of £180.

Glad you got it resolved.

loz2754 said:

Both of those are too cheap for a full EICR in my opinion. I am in the Midlands. I charge a minimum of £180.

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Think it might be a little cheaper here near London

London is more expensive.