help with unvented cylinder, cobi with dual channel hive

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

hi need help with wiring this.
basically new build with combi boiler, unvented cylinder with dual channel hive
ive attached pics with the wiring diagram giving but im now using a hive instead
so ive altered it to what i think is correct
obviously ive never sleeved any or added earths in diagram as shown

the kit come pre wired with 2 zone valves and thats the way plumber has left it, so ive doubled zone 1 and 2 up in wiring centre with link from 12 to 6.
ive ran a 4core n earth to boiler from wiring centre. but only connected brown, blue, black to switch live out.
is this correct as ive alter the diagram as it was shown live from 15 to boiler, so i changed it and went from 1 to live in boiler to give it perm live.???

i also ran a 4core n earth to hive reciever into live,neutral, 3 and 4.

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

Something is very wrong there!

A combi boiler and an unvented cylinder just don't go together for a start.
What is the point of the unvented cylinder in this arrangement?

The plumber has joined the outgoing side of both valves together which is wrong.

You have bare copper links between the terminals of the joint box, they need to be insulated links.

UNG · Nov 13, 2022

With the number of pipes to the boiler it would suggest you have a system boiler and not a combi, also there would be no point in having an unvented cylinder with a combi

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

As per the clearly written warning label on the boiler terminals the supply to the external controls must be taken from terminal 2 and the switched live to the boiler connect to terminal 1.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
Something is very wrong there!

A combi boiler and an unvented cylinder just don't go together for a start.
What is the point of the unvented cylinder in this arrangement?

The plumber has joined the outgoing side of both valves together which is wrong. One of those valves must be connected to the coil of the unvented cylinder.

You have bare copper links between the terminals of the joint box, they need to be insulated links.

sorry its a system boiler,

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

the links are the way it was sent like this

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

so why does this diagram only show 1 cable from outgoing side of boiler, do i need to use the grey aswell?

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

can you draw me a diagram please

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
so why does this diagram only show 1 cable from outgoing side of boiler, do i need to use the grey aswell?

I would guess it is because that diagram is not supplied by the boiler manufacturer.

It looks like that diagram has been drawn by someone who doesn't understand what they are doing, where is it from?

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
I would guess it is because that diagram is not supplied by the boiler manufacturer.

It looks like that diagram has been drawn by someone who doesn't understand what they are doing, where is it from?

off a website.
so does the boiler need live, neutral,earth and 2 more cores or does its just need sw live from 15 in wiring centre,neutral,earth and then leave link in 1 and 2?

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
off a website.
so does the boiler need live, neutral,earth and 2 more cores or does its just need sw live from 15 in wiring centre,neutral,earth and then leave link in 1 and 2?

If it is from a random website and not from the boiler manufacturer then of course it isn't going to be correct for the specific boiler you are wiring.
It isn't even correct for the setup it shows.

The boiler needs a permanent supply, usually from a switched fused spur with a 3A fuse.
The boiler needs a signal from the external controls, this must be connected between terminals 1 and 2.
Terminal 2 is a 230V outgoing supply from the boiler to the external controls, terminal 1 is for a 230V switched live from the external controls.
The switched live at terminal 1 must come from the supply from terminal 2, this ensures that if the boilers internal fuse operates it cuts power to all parts of the boiler.

You can either connect terminals 1 and 2 to a volt-free output from the external controls or you can use terminal 2 to supply power to all of the external controls.

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

If that's a system boiler why are there two other pumps? What are they supposed to be doing and how are they supposed to be controlled?

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
If it is from a random website and not from the boiler manufacturer then of course it isn't going to be correct for the specific boiler you are wiring.
It isn't even correct for the setup it shows.

The boiler needs a permanent supply, usually from a switched fused spur with a 3A fuse.
The boiler needs a signal from the external controls, this must be connected between terminals 1 and 2.
Terminal 2 is a 230V outgoing supply from the boiler to the external controls, terminal 1 is for a 230V switched live from the external controls.
The switched live at terminal 1 must come from the supply from terminal 2, this ensures that if the boilers internal fuse operates it cuts power to all parts of the boiler.

You can either connect terminals 1 and 2 to a volt-free output from the external controls or you can use terminal 2 to supply power to all of the external controls.

so this is the maual with the unvented cylinder.
is shows terminal 15 to boiler,, to me thats not a permanent live.

so basically all i want to do is get rid of the controls they sent me and fit a dual channel hive.
can you alter the wiring and show me please

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
so this is the maual with the unvented cylinder.
is shows terminal 15 to boiler,, to me thats not a permanent live.

No, terminal 15 in that diagram is not a permanent live, it is a switched live to the boiler.
But note 3 of that diagram says quite clearly that this diagram is for a basic boiler, you do not have a basic boiler, you have a system boiler.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
If that's a system boiler why are there two other pumps? What are they supposed to be doing and how are they supposed to be controlled?

davesparks said:
No, terminal 15 in that diagram is not a permanent live, it is a switched live to the boiler.
But note 3 of that diagram says quite clearly that this diagram is for a basic boiler, you do not have a basic boiler, you have a system boiler.

but that came as akit from plumbers merchants, but it wouldnt matter what boiler it was terminal 15 would never go to boiler would it, so the diagram is crap anyways for any wiring

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

so if this was you doing this job how would you alter it to make it work on a hive setup?

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
but that came as akit from plumbers merchants, but it wouldnt matter what boiler it was terminal 15 would never go to boiler would it, so the diagram is crap anyways for any wiring

As I have said already terminal 15 is a switched live to the boiler.

That diagram is not crap, it clearly shows how the system should be connected if it is being installed in the way the manufacturer has designed it to be installed. And shows how it would connect to the basic version of the components which are not supplied by the manufacturer.

The electrician connecting the controls is expected to have the knowledge and skills to read that diagram, and the relevant diagrams for the boiler and anything else and use that information to connect the system up in a way that satisfies the requirements of all the parts of the system and current legislation.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
As I have said already terminal 15 is a switched live to the boiler.

That diagram is not crap, it clearly shows how the system should be connected if it is being installed in the way the manufacturer has designed it to be installed. And shows how it would connect to the basic version of the components which are not supplied by the manufacturer.

The electrician connecting the controls is expected to have the knowledge and skills to read that diagram, and the relevant diagrams for the boiler and anything else and use that information to connect the system up in a way that satisfies the requirements of all the parts of the system and current legislation.

yes but the diagram doesnt show the perm liveinto the boiler at all.
so they wire my diagram is would it work or not? the one ive altered.

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
so if this was you doing this job how would you alter it to make it work on a hive setup?

I'd remove the connector strips from that terminal box and connect it up as a standard S plan system using wago connectors.
I'd probably feed the boiler directly from the sfcu and take a 4 core flex (L, N, S/L and E) from the boiler to the terminal box using terminal 2 to feed the external controls.

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
yes but the diagram doesnt show the perm liveinto the boiler at all.
so they wire my diagram is would it work or not? the one ive altered.

No it doesnt show a permanent live because a basic boiler doesn't require a permanent live.
You have a boiler which does require a permanent live and additionally requires that the external controls be fed from terminal 2.

If you have connected it exactly as per your altered diagram then the valves will open and the pump will spin, the boiler will not fire.
Additionally the boiler manufacturer will not support any warranty claim and their service technicians will likely refuse to work on the boiler due to it not being connected as per their requirements.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
I'd remove the connector strips from that terminal box and connect it up as a standard S plan system using wago connectors.
I'd probably feed the boiler directly from the sfcu and take a 4 core flex (L, N, S/L and E) from the boiler to the terminal box using terminal 2 to feed the external controls.

so terminal 3 in hive reciever would go to 5 in wiring centre, and 4 in hive would go to 7 in wiring centre as i said?? is that correct.
so from terminal 2 (switch live out) in boiler where would you take it to on wiring centre.
does that mean terminal 1 (switch live in) in boiler you would not need to connect a wire..
i thought the brown in the zone valves where perm lives but looks as if its the grey wires thats perm lives.

its just a head scratcher for me this one its been 15 year since i done this setup but without using a hive.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

so heres 1 with only 3 cores going back to boiler , will this work

davesparks · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
so from terminal 2 (switch live out) in boiler where would you take it to on wiring centre.

I'm sure I've mentioned this already but terminal 2 is the 230V feed to the external controls.
Terminal 2 at the boiler is the live supply to the external controls.
I don't know how I can make this much clearer.

cm electical said:
does that mean terminal 1 (switch live in) in boiler you would not need to connect a wire..

Terminal 1 is switch live in, exactly what you have just written.
Again I don't really know how to make this more clear without being completely patronising.

cm electical said:
i thought the brown in the zone valves where perm lives but looks as if its the grey wires thats perm lives.

Brown and blue are the motor, grey and orange are the microswitch.

cm electical · Nov 13, 2022

davesparks said:
I'm sure I've mentioned this already but terminal 2 is the 230V feed to the external controls.
Terminal 2 at the boiler is the live supply to the external controls.
I don't know how I can make this much clearer.

Terminal 1 is switch live in, exactly what you have just written.
Again I don't really know how to make this more clear without being completely patronising.

Brown and blue are the motor, grey and orange are the microswitch.

can you just make it easy and do me a sketch of how you would do it

UNG · Nov 13, 2022

cm electical said:
its just a head scratcher for me this one its been 15 year since i done this setup but without using a hive.

Not sure why this should be a such head scrataher when you can pick virtually any "S" plan diagram and substitute the the dual channel programmer with the dual channel hive

help with unvented cylinder, cobi with dual channel hive

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