Is this a Part P failure?

glennuk · Dec 26, 2022

Hi all,

New to the forum! Quick background on me: I have a degree in electrical engineering and spent many years working with qualified electricians on house re-wires. I never qualified as an electrician as I went down the IT route but I can rewire a house with no concerns - not that I would as I'm not qualified!!

A friend of mine asked me to review the electrics on his new extension as he is not happy with the work. Here is what I found:

1. None of the back boxes are earthed. Not a failure but poor practice

2. Loose socket back box and broken light box (missing lug).

3. Ring main cable passing through back of lighting back box ( switch box is level with socket in kitchen).

4. Breakers labelled wrong on the new DB.

5. Live wire sticking out the wall with no termination block! I fixed this one as super dangerous.

6. Live wires sticking out the ceiling with no termination block. Also dangerous but out of reach. Not fixed.

7. Armoured cable missing gland and outer casing not earthed.

8. Light switch in bedroom not screwed in to back box. I fixed this one as dangerous.

Photos attached of some of these. The builder did the electrics and signed it all off. There are a number of issues with the extension- not just the electrics. If I was an inspector I would not have passed it! However, poor practice does not necessarily equate to a Part P failure. So my question is do any of the above actually constitute as a failure?

Thanks in advance,
Glenn

snowhead · Dec 26, 2022

Following the "sign off" by the builder, has,
an Electrical Installation Certificate been issued by the builder,
and also a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate received back from the Local Authority after notification by the builder?

FatAlan · Dec 26, 2022

glennuk said:
Hi all,

New to the forum! Quick background on me: I have a degree in electrical engineering and spent many years working with qualified electricians on house re-wires. I never qualified as an electrician as I went down the IT route but I can rewire a house with no concerns - not that I would as I'm not qualified!!

A friend of mine asked me to review the electrics on his new extension as he is not happy with the work. Here is what I found:

1. None of the back boxes are earthed. Not a failure but poor practice

2. Loose socket back box and broken light box (missing lug).

3. Ring main cable passing through back of lighting back box ( switch box is level with socket in kitchen).

4. Breakers labelled wrong on the new DB.

5. Live wire sticking out the wall with no termination block! I fixed this one as super dangerous.

6. Live wires sticking out the ceiling with no termination block. Also dangerous but out of reach. Not fixed.

7. Armoured cable missing gland and outer casing not earthed.

8. Light switch in bedroom not screwed in to back box. I fixed this one as dangerous.

Photos attached of some of these. The builder did the electrics and signed it all off. There are a number of issues with the extension- not just the electrics. If I was an inspector I would not have passed it! However, poor practice does not necessarily equate to a Part P failure. So my question is do any of the above actually constitute as a failure?

Thanks in advance,
Glenn

Sounds like your answering you’re own question. I’d be referring more to BS7671. Is this ‘builder’ a member of a scheme? How was the work notified? Leaving exposed live conductors!

MJPD29 · Dec 26, 2022

Just a point, back boxes do not need to be earthed if they have a fixed lug. This is not bad practice in any way.

mainline · Dec 26, 2022

MJPD29 said:
Just a point, back boxes do not need to be earthed if they have a fixed lug. This is not bad practice in any way.

It's not good practice, either.

Not all light switches have an earthing ring.

I would rather fit a fly lead as there is always the chance of the back box becoming live.

MJPD29 · Dec 26, 2022

mainline said:
It's not good practice, either.

Not all light switches have an earthing ring.

I would rather fit a fly lead as there is always the chance of the back box becoming live.

Absolutley nothing wrong with it. Please point me to a regulation that states otherwise.

freddo · Dec 26, 2022

What does that armoured cable connect to? The single insulation looks like it is exposed. I hope it's not going directly to the meter!

mainline · Dec 26, 2022

MJPD29 said:
Absolutley nothing wrong with it. Please point me to a regulation that states otherwise.

I didn't say it was a requirement, and I didn't say it was bad practice.
But as said, it's not good practice.
Best practice is to fit a fly lead.
Try reading GN8

Dustydazzler · Dec 26, 2022

Standard install in 2022

Domestic has gone to Sh!t in the last decade of so

glennuk · Dec 26, 2022

The builder is an approved NIC EIC contractor and he has issued the certificate. I just don't understand how he can issue it with live wires sticking out the wall!

And yes the armoured cable connects to the main 100A incomer.

I'm very tempted to report him.

Dustydazzler · Dec 26, 2022

glennuk said:
The builder is an approved NIC EIC contractor and he has issued the certificate. I just don't understand how he can issue it with live wires sticking out the wall!

And yes the armoured cable connects to the main 100A incomer.

I'm very tempted to report him.

Waste of time

Just give them a price to do the job properly

littlespark · Dec 26, 2022

Dustydazzler said:
Waste of time

Just give them a price to do the job properly

OP cant
Not a practicing electrician.

DefyG · Dec 27, 2022

If the builder/sparks has issued an installation certificate that implies all is compliant with BS7671 and within timescale for building regs, there is no reason why a Part P certificate wont be issued (Did it come straight from the builder/sparks?).
A building inspector wont re-inspect the works done.
Your only recourse is to report it to NICEIC but I dont hold out much hope of them getting involved unless perhaps you can stress how dangerous the live wire situation was.

snowhead · Dec 27, 2022

Send the list to the builder first and see if he has any comments.

brianmoooore · Dec 27, 2022

DefyG said:
Your only recourse is to report it to NICEIC but I dont hold out much hope of them getting involved unless perhaps you can stress how dangerous the live wire situation was.

Take more than that. Odd unterminated live wire is fairly standard on new builds these days. Was on the one my son bought, last year.

DefyG · Dec 27, 2022

brianmoooore said:
Take more than that. Odd unterminated live wire is fairly standard on new builds these days. Was on the one my son bought, last year.

Probably tend to agree but how many get reported to NICEIC? I think mostly would get reported to the site agent.
Hopefully the NICEIC would act on one or two of them

mainline · Dec 27, 2022

glennuk said:
The builder is an approved NIC EIC contractor and he has issued the certificate. I just don't understand how he can issue it with live wires sticking out the wall!

And yes the armoured cable connects to the main 100A incomer.

I'm very tempted to report him.

Why not contact the contractor and raise the concerns you have with him first.

The Niceic will say the same thing.

brianmoooore · Dec 27, 2022

glennuk said:
And yes the armoured cable connects to the main 100A incomer.

Can you post a pic of the whole of the inside of that meter box, please.

Markyd · Dec 27, 2022

Name Him.....Live cables not protected, get him back to the job and stick his tongue on them

nicebutdim · Dec 27, 2022

mainline said:
It's not good practice, either.

Not all light switches have an earthing ring.

I would rather fit a fly lead as there is always the chance of the back box becoming live.

I'd also add that chances of a back box becoming live in NI are significantly lower than in GB as there are few circumstances where cable sheath will be in contact with entry point of box. Cables buried in walls are enclosed in conduit and those in stud walls generally enter boxes through a PVC female adaptor that won't easily dislodge like a grommet might.

mainline · Dec 27, 2022

nicebutdim said:
I'd also add that chances of a back box becoming live in NI are significantly lower than in GB as there are few circumstances where cable sheath will be in contact with entry point of box. Cables buried in walls are enclosed in conduit and those in stud walls generally enter boxes through a PVC female adaptor that won't easily dislodge like a grommet might.

You may find the same sort of spark that doesn't fly lead may also not bother with grommets and say It's absolutely fine.

nicebutdim · Dec 27, 2022

mainline said:
You may find the same sort of spark that doesn't fly lead may also not bother with grommets and say It's absolutely fine.

I've no idea what practices are engaged in GB, but even the most careless spark in NI will ensure cables are suitably protected upon entry to metal boxes and seldom with a flimsy grommet.

The last time grommets were in widespread use for that purpose was back in the days of VIR (which was encased in oval metal conduit when buried). Later installations used oval PVC conduit and this was brought into back boxes. Modern installations used round conduit, either brought into boxes or finshed with an adaptor. Metal boxes in stud walls generally have a PVC bush for entry. This isn't just 'good practice', it's the only acceptable practice here. As such, the chances of a back box becoming live are exceptionally low.

Edit: the point I'm driving at is that one person's idea of good practice can be considered appalling by another. While it may indeed be good practice to have a flylead in metal boxes, it isn't necessarily a requirement and would appear to be the least of issues on the OP's list.

mainline · Dec 27, 2022

nicebutdim said:
I've no idea what practices are engaged in GB, but even the most careless spark in NI will ensure cables are suitably protected upon entry to metal boxes and seldom with a flimsy grommet.

The last time grommets were in widespread use for that purpose was back in the days of VIR (which was encased in oval metal conduit when buried). Later installations used oval PVC conduit and this was brought into back boxes. Modern installations used round conduit, either brought into boxes or finshed with an adaptor. Metal boxes in stud walls generally have a PVC bush for entry. This isn't just 'good practice', it's the only acceptable practice here. As such, the chances of a back box becoming live are exceptionally low.

The thing that peeves me is that a lack of grommets or indeed lack of fly lead will get noted or may even pick up a c3 by the same sparky I've seen not use them.

ipf · Dec 27, 2022

mainline said:
It's not good practice, either.

Not all light switches have an earthing ring.

I would rather fit a fly lead as there is always the chance of the back box becoming live.

You could say that's a matter of opinion....and depends on the state of the
the installation anyway, especially termination wise.
It's a simple topic with loads of consequential 'ifs and 'if nots'.

SJD · Dec 27, 2022

mainline said:
I didn't say it was a requirement, and I didn't say it was bad practice.
But as said, it's not good practice.
Best practice is to fit a fly lead.
Try reading GN8

I've no idea how the above quote got inserted under my name!
Perhaps a Mod could delete it?

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