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Buzz1980

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Hi All

Seen this on a few jobs now where they have on the Downlight fittings where the CPC is terminated outside the enclosure of the Downlight due to not having a earth connection inside. Does anyone know the reg that states that this is not permitted and earth connections should be inside enclosure. As on a EICR I would usually put down C3 but if you look at the Downlight connection side, the earth cable usually comes out the terminal enclosure single insulated and then connected on the side of the Downlight. Will look forward to responses cheers
 

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Pretty Mouth said:
I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of these regulations.

526.5 begins "Every termination and joint in a live conductor or a PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof...". This regulation has no requirements for CPCs, therefore neither does 526.8 IMO
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526.8 refers to cores of sheathed cables this covers all cores. It's reference to 526.5 is to the enclosure methods.
 
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westward10 said:
526.8 refers to cores of sheathed cables this covers all cores. It's reference to 526.5 is to the enclosure methods.
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While I can see how you may have come to this conclusion (the regulation 526.8 could do with being clearer), I don't believe it to be correct. I believe 526.8 references 526.5 in full, and does not expect us to overlook the first sentence of 526.5.
 
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Pretty Mouth said:
the regulation 526.8 could do with being clearer
Click to expand...
That wording has in fact been practically identical since at least 16th edition (earliest I have to hand) and I've never considered it at anything other than face value before tonight:

[ElectriciansForums.net] Earth terminated outside.

I can't see that it actually makes sense without applying the 1st sentence too of the 1st reg too.

Imagine a non-sheathed 10mm (single insulated) CPC running in conduit, then glanded from a BESA box, and off to bond a water pipe. According to the 2nd reg alone that would need to be enclosed, right?
I believe it to be the first sentence of the 1st reg that says "no, no need" as it's not a live conductor or a pen conductor.

I've never thought of it any other way, and am happy to be corrected.
 
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I think I know the LAP downlights the OP means (not the ones pictured), and have on occasion fitted them myself when supplied by a customer. I did the same, sheathed and folded the CPC back along the sheath and joined with a wago outside of the enclosure. While non-compliant, I don't see any real benefit in terms of safety in wiring in junction boxes to enclose the CPC connection.
 
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If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!
 
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pirate said:
If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!
Click to expand...
Then that is a non compliant installation, I assume you note this as a departure.
 
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pirate said:
If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Click to expand...
presumably in a wago box or other enclosure as per the instructions?
 
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Yes, clearly a departure, and noted as such...but if enclosed suitably, then not a problem. What you actually do is a question of choice/location/circumstances/preference...we may have to adhere to standards, but we are professionals too...if we can justify it, we should stick by it.
A superflous cpc at a class 2 luminaire with a cpc in an external Wago is not a problem. The fitting doesn't need it.
A cpc available at every light fitting is a good thing.
A change to a Class 1 luminaire means a cpc is available, and at that time, proper enclosure is important.
Always be aware that YOUR choice is going to be questioned...and be prepared to defend your choice with robust and valid arguments. Don't be afraid of the "rules Gods", just have a reasoned approach to defend, and state your case accordingly.
Yes, I know...don't start, ok? Do it right, or do it right enough and safely.
 
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Not sure what you mean Westy...if i had a suitable class 2 luminaire then a cpc wouldn't be needed. A 2 core cable serving it would be fine, but not future proof. I'd rather cable for what might be, rather than what is...so cpc at each lighting point, which is now the norm...
and if the cpc isn't required, at least it is there for future use. OK, a "floating" cpc isn't ideal, but connected in a Wago or Ideal it's not exactly going to kill anyone is it?
Oh...look. we have a fault on the lighting circuit...the mcb has tripped!
No! It's worse...the rcd has tripped... or the rcbo...
I know! Let's open up the Wagos that have the cpc connectivity and lick the bare ends!
Westy, we looked at a poor connector...but we both know there are various ways of sorting that out...I totally agree with your scenario of perfection, but in the real world I do feel there is room for variation, provided you can justify it...that's all I'm saying. In a previous life, I argued black was white...and sometimes it was.
Having said all that...
We all should strive to do what is best, and if that's not possible, do what is as near to best as we can manage.
and if that's not possible?
Bodge it!
,,,but bodge it safely!
It's what we have to do...sometimes.
 
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Yes but you can't justify it. This is nothing to do with perfection the correct means is simple. Three core to a suitable luminaire connector then two core from this connector to the light fitting.
The rest of your post is somewhat meaningless.
 
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I'm not sure that we are actually looking at the same scenario Westy...your reply suggests we are viewing a totally different installation.
Yes, a 3-core to a 2-core...perfection...but how often do we see this when installing new fittings? We see 2-core and cpc, so the question is what to do with the cpc?
I guess we would all have a different solution...but I do like your thinking on this...and will take it on board for the future.
Meantime, if I am faced with fitting some Class 2 lights, I'll loop the cpc rather than cutting it off, and if the "loop" is outside an enclosure, but unlikely to be interfered with, I will sleep ok. In any other circumstance, I'll enclose it.
Thank you for your valuable input, because I know you are one for the best installation practice. I just think that sometimes there is a safe alternative where the risk is minimal, and I am prepared to defend my choice in those circumstances.
 
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I beg to differ...
and I am confident in that...
I am sorry that you can't see my viewpoint, but we'll leave it there.
Thank you for your input because it is always so measured and of value.
I will still loop a spare cpc at the fitting!
 
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