UK 3 x 2.5mm T&Es into one 13A socket. How do you do it?

Mark42 · Jul 6, 2023

I've always disliked needing to wrangle three 2.5mm T&Es into one 13A socket.

The three solid cores rarely sit cleanly, and there's always the suspicion that at least one core is not being held properly:

[ElectriciansForums.net] 3 x 2.5mm T&Es into one 13A socket. How do you do it?

Lately I've been doing this, using 5-way Wagos and bits of stranded 2.5mm single, fitted with ferrules, into the socket itself:

Of course that's more joints. Perhaps unnecessary joints. But it appears to me a more secure and more maintenance-free method.

I don't believe there's any regulatory reason why it can't be done like this.

What do others do/think?

mainline · Jul 9, 2023

Pretty Mouth said:
IIRC, the 4mm wago 221s are 32A, except when MF, when they are 20A.

There are different versions of 221 4 mm and 6 mm.
USA rate them as 20amp

And:

7029 dave · Jul 9, 2023

Looking at the photo maybe could be dressed in a bit better on the forming of the conductors, more of a sharper bend. Not the greatest example for this situation dry lined box on stud wall but hey gotta work with it.
Metal boxes on a solid wall would be much easier I would dress all the conductors all in the same direction then sweep them back round on themselves dress them in back into the box before even trying to screw them up.

mainline · Jul 10, 2023

Pretty Mouth said:
I don't think this is prohibited by appendix 15 though is it? It's not a spur off a spur, so shouldn't be issues with the cable overloading. The wagos wouldn't be subject to any more current in this arrangement than the terminals of the socket would be if the spur was terminated into the back of the socket, if you see what I mean.

It looks like this has already been discussed in another thread, It seemed to have caused a divide.

What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion, is non-compliant with BS7671.

mainline · Jul 10, 2023

Mark42 said:
I've always disliked needing to wrangle three 2.5mm T&Es into one 13A socket.

The three solid cores rarely sit cleanly, and there's always the suspicion that at least one core is not being held properly:

View attachment 109255

Lately I've been doing this, using 5-way Wagos and bits of stranded 2.5mm single, fitted with ferrules, into the socket itself:

View attachment 109256

Of course that's more joints. Perhaps unnecessary joints. But it appears to me a more secure and more maintenance-free method.

I don't believe there's any regulatory reason why it can't be done like this.

What do others do/think?

Is it just me or the photo quality but looking closely especially the L I can’t see the cable pushed fully into the wagos.

Pretty Mouth · Jul 10, 2023

mainline said:
It looks like this has already been discussed in another thread, It seemed to have caused a divide.

What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion, is non-compliant with BS7671.

I can only really repeat what I said before. In post #1, picture2, the wago would receive the same load as the terminals of a socket would, if spurred from in the usual way (as in post #1, picture 1). The ring would receive the same load at that point wired either way. The 32A wago is protected by the 32A breaker.

The wago arrangement isn't shown in the design guide, but I see no less protection against overload, or anything else, in this arrangement. I don't think it is prohibited by regulation, and I don't think the OP should go back to alter the work.

Dustydazzler · Jul 10, 2023

If this was an old socket with cores too short to reach the new socket then I would have used Wagos connectors just like the OP and made up some 2.5mm flying leads to make off in my new socket front.
I think some people are getting their goat with he OP as the cables 'could have' just been put into the back on the socket and no need for the flying lead wago c

Mark42 · Jul 10, 2023

OP here: Quick update as busy this week.

I never said this was an RFC. (Although I believe it would not matter if it were, for reasons I’ll explain in detail later.)

It’s a 2.5mm radial protected by a 20A RCBO, in a commercial setting.

The third cable goes off to a distant display screen up on the wall. I considered it better engineering practice to ‘spur’ this accessory rather than go all the way up there and back again with a continuous radial, which would have made the total circuit length much longer.

pc1966 · Jul 10, 2023

mainline said:
It looks like this has already been discussed in another thread, It seemed to have caused a divide.

Yes I think I recall that one of the moderators had to step and and stop that discussion as it had gone from technical to personal insults, which is not what the forum strives for.

mainline said:
What has come about from this somewhat heated debate, is one or two members have either contacted their respective C.P.Schemes, the NICEIC in this instance, or the IET directly, both organisations have declared that the issue presented to them by members of the Forum, in their opinion, is non-compliant with BS7671.

Again, maybe I am thinking of another thread, but in the one that was stopped the argument was that the Wago itself was part of the RFC so you could take multiple loads off it. I think most folks (including myself) disagreed with that view and took the more reasonable approach that the Wago is no different to a terminal on an accessory so what matters is the total load on a point of the RFC not causing too much imbalance between the 'legs' which the usual diversity of fuse-limited loads spread over the overall length of the RFC would offer.

The issue with the "spur off a spur" sort of DIY is that 2.5mm cable can have its nominal 20A rating exceeded hence the prohibition on that, unless off a FCU or similar that limits the total load.

What the OP is showing is not quite the same, as basically you have a double socket and a spur connected to the same location of the RFC. I don't see this as any different to taking a spur off the double socket in the conventional case as the total load on the RFC at that point is the same, and it is not flowing through a single section of 2.5mm

EDIT: Seems it was a radial, but above still of interest to discuss!

DPG · Jul 10, 2023

I think it was JohnSJW wasn't it?

pc1966 · Jul 10, 2023

Mark42 said:
It’s a 2.5mm radial protected by a 20A RCBO, in a commercial setting.

OK, then no issues whatsoever as none can be overloaded.

Mark42 said:
The third cable goes off to a distant display screen up on the wall. I considered it better engineering practice to ‘spur’ this accessory rather than go all the way up there and back again with a continuous radial, which would have made the total circuit length much longer.

Its a trade-off, you lose the end-socket test for continuity on all socket's CPC, etc, but gain less volt drop & cost.

pirate · Jul 10, 2023

But...is a Wago really a busbar?

(Grabs coat and runs for the hills...)

pirate · Jul 10, 2023

Sorry...
It's not been a good day so far!
Off on holiday tomorrow to the land where choc-block and leccy tape rules!
...and nobody dies!
Well, not many from electrocution anyway...

ipf · Jul 10, 2023

pirate said:
Sorry...
It's not been a good day so far!
Off on holiday tomorrow to the land where choc-block and leccy tape rules!
...and nobody dies!
Well, not many from electrocution anyway...

Take some wire nuts with you to give 'em some more ideas.

I'm sorry....................................................for continuing this thread.

Dustydazzler · Jul 10, 2023

pirate said:
Sorry...
It's not been a good day so far!
Off on holiday tomorrow to the land where choc-block and leccy tape rules!
...and nobody dies!
Well, not many from electrocution anyway...

My parents used to have an apartment in Crete every summer we went their the additions to the wiring always made me laugh.
Choc blocks all over the floor spliced here there and everywhere with white flexes for outside lights , twisted tape joints for ceiling fans... all brand new work done over the winter

telectrix · Jul 10, 2023

never had prob. with 3. 4 is tight and 5 is almost beyond it. once has to drill terminal oversize to get all in. allways remember, we are electricians, not wet-pants or wood butchers. there are no problems, only solutions.