UK 3 Phase Smart Meter EDMI ES -30 B Install

wormcharmer · Dec 16, 2023

3 Phase Smart Meter EDMI ES -30 B Install

I have a question regarding the potential replacement of my existing EON supplied ELSTER A1140 3 phase meter which is currently providing E10 switching times for our all electric home.

The house has an old electric storage boiler and the system is set up such that I get 10 hours of off peak electricity for the boiler and one of two immersion heaters and also the rest of the house.
During peak times the house except boiler and immersion heater are use the higher rate.
This is an old Heatwise system from 2000.

EON Next have not been very helpful to clarify whether changing to a smart meter will give the same functionality as the existing system with 10 hours off peak supply and have an IHD or whether this would be different.
They just want me to book a smart meter install.

From other posts on this forum I understand that EON Next could replace my meter with a EDMI ES-30B 3 phase smart meter.

Does anyone on the forum have experience of such a change in a 3 phase system and whether this is straight forward.
Would the same off peak times be retained with such a change etc.

I know smart meters are the way forward but I have seen too many posts of home owners who have had problems following a change and I do not want to be one of them.

I have attached a couple of pictures of my meter and CU install, hopefully this will help.

Thanks

Peter

Avo Mk8 · Dec 16, 2023

Hi wormcharmer
Having seen your second post on this subject today, I think you are coming to the correct conclusion hanging on to your present meter for as long as you can.

I had an E10 supply in an all electric property built in 2006/7 with electric thermal store UFH heating designed for E10. EDF was our supplier and we painlessly switched to an E10 smart meter with them about four years ago, but the scene seems to be changing now.
Fewer and fewer suppliers are offering E10 even on single phase. My impression is that you can't move to another supplier on E10 as none of them will offer E10 to new customers, even if they are supplying it for existing customers, and I'm not sure that EonNext will even offer an E10 rate now, however many phases you have!
If you sign up for a smart meter without certainty of E10, you will most likely end up on E7, judging from posts on the interweb!

wormcharmer · Dec 17, 2023

Avo Mk8 said:
Hi wormcharmer
Having seen your second post on this subject today, I think you are coming to the correct conclusion hanging on to your present meter for as long as you can.

I had an E10 supply in an all electric property built in 2006/7 with electric thermal store UFH heating designed for E10. EDF was our supplier and we painlessly switched to an E10 smart meter with them about four years ago, but the scene seems to be changing now.
Fewer and fewer suppliers are offering E10 even on single phase. My impression is that you can't move to another supplier on E10 as none of them will offer E10 to new customers, even if they are supplying it for existing customers, and I'm not sure that EonNext will even offer an E10 rate now, however many phases you have!
If you sign up for a smart meter without certainty of E10, you will most likely end up on E7, judging from posts on the interweb!

Thanks Avo MK8 for your reply.

Interesting there are E10 smart meters out there at least from 4 years ago. I assume this was 3 phase.
EON Next are using the ploy that my meter is reaching its end of its life and needs to be replaced by a smart meter. It was installed in 2015 !
In a message from them in Sept regarding smart meters they said.

""Regards to your question on if we have a compatible meter for the E10 tariff.

The answer is not yet, however they are working on this as more people are wanting the tariff now.

Thank you for your paitence.""

My thinking ...

If they MUST replace the meter I should not be penalised by them putting me on a worse tarif as my house heating was designed around E10.

I don't know how I stand legally on this, I maybe needs to be checked further.

Avo Mk8 · Dec 17, 2023

wormcharmer said:
Interesting there are E10 smart meters out there at least from 4 years ago. I assume this was 3 phase.

Sorry for not making this clear. It was not a 3 phase meter, but single phase (100A). I wasn't trying to imply I had any experience of 3 phase. Sorry if I gave false hope!

wormcharmer · Dec 17, 2023

Avo Mk8 said:
Sorry for not making this clear. It was not a 3 phase meter, but single phase (100A). I wasn't trying to imply I had any experience of 3 phase. Sorry if I gave false hope!

No problem, thanks for your input.

MJPD29 · Dec 19, 2023

wormcharmer said:
Thanks Avo MK8 for your reply.

Interesting there are E10 smart meters out there at least from 4 years ago. I assume this was 3 phase.
EON Next are using the ploy that my meter is reaching its end of its life and needs to be replaced by a smart meter. It was installed in 2015 !
In a message from them in Sept regarding smart meters they said.

""Regards to your question on if we have a compatible meter for the E10 tariff.

The answer is not yet, however they are working on this as more people are wanting the tariff now.

Thank you for your paitence.""

My thinking ...

If they MUST replace the meter I should not be penalised by them putting me on a worse tarif as my house heating was designed around E10.

I don't know how I stand legally on this, I maybe needs to be checked further.

You likely won’t have any legal standing and they can make these changes if they desire. It can be a hard one to take with suppliers, but sadly it’s their decision to make. Always worth checking though.

wormcharmer · Dec 19, 2023

MJPD29 said:
You likely won’t have any legal standing and they can make these changes if they desire. It can be a hard one to take with suppliers, but sadly it’s their decision to make. Always worth checking though.

Thanks for your input.
I am going to stick with my current meter as long as possible as I have had no reassurance from anyone that changing to a smart meter for my 3 phase supply and E10 has been done before.

freddo · Dec 19, 2023

wormcharmer said:
Regards to your question on if we have a compatible meter for the E10 tariff.

The answer is not yet, however they are working on this as more people are wanting the tariff now.

Surely the only difference is in the programming of the offpeak times and nothing else?! Suppliers are working hard to move everyone off of E10 and on to E7.

Avo Mk8 · Dec 19, 2023

freddo said:
Surely the only difference is in the programming of the offpeak times and nothing else?! Suppliers are working hard to move everyone off of E10 and on to E7.

But half of the E10 off-peak is typically supplied during what are now 'peak' hours.
example

3 off-peak hours in the afternoon (e.g. 1pm – 4pm)
2 in the evening (e.g. 8pm – 10pm)
5 overnight (e.g. midnight – 5am)

So for UFH heat store systems the store is topped up during the afternoon and again in the evening to keep the temperature up, and systems were designed around that.
To maintain performance of a heating system designed around E10, and be able to run it from E7, might require a larger store, more powerful immersion heaters, and/or running the store at higher temperature (more heat loss), or having to top up the existing system with peak rate power during the day.

You can surely understand why people with a satisfactorily working heating system get a bit miffed when their supplier wants to change the rules so it won't work as well unless you spend more money!

James · Dec 19, 2023

I agree, it is a bit unfair when they change the rules.
however, as a nation out usage patterns are changing and the most cost effective tariffs will always follow the low use periods, there are 2 issues at play.

1. the nations usage patterns are changing. no longer is there a huge dip overnight, 24h society, ev charging, and battery storage systems are flattening it out a bit so the really low usage is no longer all night, it is for some hours overnight.

2. smart meters are now able to put a different rate on your usage every 15min, before you could only have rate 1 and rate 2, the hours were fixed.

I think the Idea is for people (end users) to balance grid consumption by usage patterns driven by price. battery storage is being actively encouraged by the government.

and from a purely technical view, local storage and usage from the grid in low periods is efficient.

I just wish the price of battery storage would fall a bit lower.

I have done the calcs and for me at home i came up with the following

not including the electric car,
usage is 20 to 30Kwh per day
tariff is 34 pence per unit
356 * 25 * 0.34=£3103

if i could buy all my electricity at night rate of 8p per unit then the cost per year is £730
saving of £2373 per year

costs of battery storage etc.
29Kwh batterys (4 x 5Kwh) = 1295 x 4 =£5180
15Kw inverter/charger = £5779
other costs for infrastructure £930
Total £11889

this means a 5 year pay back
so after investing nearly 12K I would have to cross my fingers and hope that the difference between peak and off peak is still the same in 5 years time so i can start actually saving money after paying off the investment.

people have said it is better to pair it up with solar, however the maths most use for solar assume you are buying electricity at the day rate of 34p or more and give you a 5 to 7 year payback, however when you do the maths if you have battery storage the only electricity you will save is the stuff you buy at night at 8p and that puts the solar payback in the 20year scale.

everyone's usage will give different results when you do the maths but that is what I discovered.

p.s. I have gas heating but it is topped up by reverse cycle A/C otherwise known as air source heat pump. however it is only in 3 rooms of the house so that complicates matters in that i could invest in more of that for the other 4 rooms at a cost of £6k ish. and then be a totally electric house.
however that would push up the daily consumption and would probably require another 5 or 10Kwh of storage at the cost of £2600
that would add £8.5K to the 12K invested and wow the numbers are getting really big.
however it would mean that i loose the gas bill that is around the same as the electric bill so possibly saving £6k per year.

If I as an electrician, mathematician, engineer and all an all know it all struggle to work out the costs/savings of all this then how on earth can the average consumer? seems like the market is just waiting for a whole load of companies to come round and do the "double glazing sales tactics" and sell to the un-informed. (not that you can be un-informed as being informed is so complex)