Does a SPD need a dedicated MCB?

oscar21 · May 8, 2024

Does a SPD need a dedicated way?

I need an extra way in this unit for a 3 phase car charger

[ElectriciansForums.net] Does a SPD need a dedicated MCB?

As you can see its a small unit with no extra ways, the building is rented and the tenant is adamant that the board is not to be changed as he has been told no major alterations. We have already bodged it somewhat on his say so by adding a small single phase board for some extra lighting and sockets he wanted (we shuffled the circuits about so all the socket/water heater circuits were spread across the phases and its just lighting sat on the single phase board, thats was last year and everything has been fine so far. I would have fitted an aditional 3ph unit but the mains cupboard is tiny.

He now wants to do similar with the car charger but I need three ways so it would mean moving three socket circuits all onto one phase. But I was thinking, the little unit below has the SPD in it which is fed from a 32A 3 phase MCB, any reason the car charger can't share the same MCB from a regs point of view?

I know its a bodge but I'll be bodging it anyway in one way or another, I also cant say no as its the bloke's office that gives us tonnes of work.

Now for the second question, I don't normally fit car chargers, this is the unit he's bought,

iON 22kW or 7kW Modes 3 Phase 8M Tethered EV Charger Type 2 Level 2, Card+ Wi-Fi | eBay

Adjustable output 3.5kW - 22kW. Power output: 22kW. 3 Phase and Single Phase Modes. Security RIF card mode. Wi-Fi online APP mode. Touch screen. 2x Key Fobs included. Uses TUYA or Smart Life APP's.

www.ebay.co.uk

Cant make head nor tail of the instructions, they have a whole paragraph dedicated to how the lead might strangle a kid but nothing that I can find on the type of connection, rating etc, main question is will it need an RCD, the supply cable wont need it as its back to back with the mains unit.

I hate getting involved in stuff like this, its always far from straightforward.

littlespark · May 12, 2024

The DNO need to know so that they can estimate and plan future works to improve the infrastructure.

If a load of EV charge points are put in without them knowing… there will be sections of their network carrying much more than it was designed for.

Whether we like it or not, the govt are pushing EV, and if you don’t take it up…. You will be left behind.

westward10 · May 12, 2024

If the maximum demand including the EV charger exceeds 13.8 kva you must inform them prior to installation if not you can install and notify after.

UNG · May 12, 2024

oscar21 said:
Secondly how will putting a separate enclosure next to the mains help my situation, its either a complete new board or an additional 3 phase board, splitting the tails and all the work that ensues, it will cost a good few hundred either way and the bloke doesn't want to pay that. As it happens the manufacturer have got back to me and stated it needs RCD protection so I will be fitting a separate enclose for that. They didn't mention earth grids etc. Why would they, what happens if someone doesn't park on it and charges their car?

So cost is above safety and doing the job properly

oscar21 said:
Normally I'd say I cant do it but he is the best giver of work and payer we've ever had and I'm not putting that at risk by being awkward, especially when the next electrician turns up, bodges it in 5 minutes and says how easy it was. So if the worst that will happen is a few regs fans have a little cry then I'm all for it.

And this makes me wonder what other corners you have cut in the past, clearly with his work cost is the big factor he continues to give you the work because your cheaper than the rest because you are cutting corners / ignoring or bending the rules / regs / using inferior products
When you certify the jobs do you indicate all the departures from the regs on the cert
If you are disregarding the regs why not just take the SPD out does the installation really need it when someone else thought it did

I always work on the principle could I justify my actions to that man of woman in the wig who could facilitate a large financial penalty and / or an enforced stay at one of the many HM hotels if it goes seriously or fatally wrong, if you feel you can then crack on

mainline · May 12, 2024

oscar21 said:
Yes I know but I live in the real world. Regs like this were brought about so you didn't piggy back them off something like a socket circuit that was already loaded.

A good reason then.

oscar21 said:
Lets take an immersion circuit, they used to run off a fused spur from the ring without any problem whatsoever, then someone said dedicated circuit only which made sense because all of a sudden socket circuits had more than a wooden lamp plugged into them.

That's not true, I've seen many fused 13amp immersion fuse holders burnt up.

oscar21 said:
Would I connect an immersion to the ring circuit nowadays? No way. Would I wire a boiler from the same circuit as the new immersion feed I've just wired, absolutely if it saved a second run of 2.5 across the house

Why would you even use a 2.5mm for a 3amp boiler circuit.

oscar21 said:
because the boiler uses such a minuscule amount of power that it wont affect the immersion circuit (that will never be used) one little bit.

oscar21 said:
The SPD uses zero current,

It will in a fault condition.

oscar21 said:
And that philosophy has been proven the world over by countless millions of people.

As long as it works never mind eh!

mainline · May 12, 2024

oscar21 said:
Most of thats rubbish, you must know that. If the immersion blew you would simply switch it off at the DP switch and carry on using the boiler circuit, apart from the fact the immersion is only used if the boiler breaks, not the other way round. As for blowing the PCB fuses, how? you could spur off a socket for a boiler FCU and plug a big heater into the socket, if the heater wen't bang that wouldn't affect the boiler would it.

I do have to agree there lol.

oscar21 said:
They didn't mention earth grids etc. Why would they, what happens if someone doesn't park on it and charges their car?

It seems you have no idea about what an earth grid is.

oscar21 said:
I do care, I don't do dangerous stuff, I just don't do everything anyone tells me to do, if I think a reg is daft or over the top I'll do what I think is right, I use common sense instead of blind faith. The limited instructions I linked to earlier state that it has open PEN protection and ground protection (whatever that is) you have to go into the display settings to turn it on apparently.

Did you actually read that in the instructions ?
Installation manuals are quite handy sometimes.

oscar21 said:
Normally I'd say I cant do it but he is the best giver of work and payer we've ever had and I'm not putting that at risk by being awkward, especially when the next electrician turns up, bodges it in 5 minutes and says how easy it was. So if the worst that will happen is a few regs fans have a little cry then I'm all for it.

Wonder how long it will be before another spark comes along and says ..... Who the fk did this

timhoward · May 12, 2024

oscar21 said:
Bloke says he doesn't care.

It's not him fitting it, it's you. He'll be the first to throw you under the bus if he wants PV and battery next year and the MCS guy mentions the EVCP on his site survey.

Please believe me that the DNO are your friends here. It takes very little admin effort to fill out the form and email them. They don't mind clarifying and discussion about details, and in one early case helpfully pointed out me how I could turn it into a "connect and notify"

Resistance is Futile · May 12, 2024

This guy has got to be on the wind up.

oscar21 · May 13, 2024

Resistance is Futile said:
This guy has got to be on the wind up.

Why would I be on the windup, not everyone is a goody two shoes.

Anyway went today and found this label on the side of it, more confused than ever now.

So does that mean it has type A/AC protection built into it or it needs it, I thought if it needed RCD protection it should be type B.

We did have a look inside it as we were going to put a longer flex on it (which is a simple job if we do it) and it does have a CT round the input wires (all apart from the earth) this was plugged onto the PCB but no obvious RCD inside it like the Zapi's have.

oscar21 · May 13, 2024

Another thing I've just thought of, what about all the other RCBO's in the board, I've not had to touch them yet but if the charger is installed could the DC affect them, do they need changing to type A (if they aren't already) or even type B's.

I honestly don't know why anyone would get involved in this game, its an absolute minefield, thats not to mention the costs involved. It could cost a householder thousands to get up to spec just for the privilege of driving an electric vehicle, which isn't much cheaper than a diesel to run. And that's without adding the install costs to it, then you have to wait all day to "fill it up" and it only has a limited distance compared to normal fuel.

Then there are the repair costs, if something goes wrong you cant work on them yourself, I took our DPF to bits at the weekend and jet-washed it out, good as new. People must be absolutely nuts to go electric, I don't see one plus point, not even close.

oscar21 · May 13, 2024

Thats from the ebay listing, it says it has PEN fault detection protection and GROUND fault detection protection, surely the second one is an RCD, but the email reply I got back from iON says it isn't built in.

With all the chargers available, why would someone buy the cheapest chinesium charger off ebay, especially when it is going to charge an £80k car.

DPG · May 13, 2024

oscar21 said:
Another thing I've just thought of, what about all the other RCBO's in the board, I've not had to touch them yet but if the charger is installed could the DC affect them, do they need changing to type A (if they aren't already) or even type B's.

I honestly don't know why anyone would get involved in this game, its an absolute minefield, thats not to mention the costs involved. It could cost a householder thousands to get up to spec just for the privilege of driving an electric vehicle, which isn't much cheaper than a diesel to run. And that's without adding the install costs to it, then you have to wait all day to "fill it up" and it only has a limited distance compared to normal fuel.

Then there are the repair costs, if something goes wrong you cant work on them yourself, I took our DPF to bits at the weekend and jet-washed it out, good as new. People must be absolutely nuts to go electric, I don't see one plus point, not even close.

Your info on electric cars is out of date.

nicebutdim · May 13, 2024

This might as well be posted in the DIY section.

Little difference between what's going on in this thread and a homeowner thinking they know enough to do without paying an electrician, then coming on here expecting all the answers.

This industry has been changing since its inception and people have continually needed to learn. If you no longer want to do that, then step aside on these jobs and let people who know (and care about) what they're doing take over.

westward10 · May 13, 2024

Possibly says type A (shouldn't say AC but is from EBay) because it contains an RDC-DD so does it?
They need to employ a competent EV installer who will also notify the DNO.

westward10 · May 13, 2024

Some contain an RCD which are not mechanical they are PCB based and hence do not comply to BS7671.

KungFuTurkeyLeg · May 17, 2024

Just get some tin snips, cut out some more ways and solder on a longer busbar.

(I pray that's not taken seriously)

Does a SPD need a dedicated MCB?

oscar21

iON 22kW or 7kW Modes 3 Phase 8M Tethered EV Charger Type 2 Level 2, Card+ Wi-Fi | eBay

littlespark

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westward10

UNG

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mainline

mainline

timhoward

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Resistance is Futile

oscar21

oscar21

oscar21

DPG

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nicebutdim

westward10

westward10

KungFuTurkeyLeg

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