Electrical loop removal - help!

alisonlcraig · 2024-11-24T14:22:53+0000

I moved into a house that had a double gang switch downstairs that controlled a downstairs and upstairs hallway lights. You could turn the upstairs one on from downstairs and off upstairs etc. The downstairs hallway light was just controlled by the downstairs switch. I want to disconnect any loop and just have upstairs controlling upstairs and downstairs controlling downstairs, both with a single gang switch.

In the downstairs socket there is a red and black (presumably for downstairs) and also a red, blue and yellow in a sheath (presumably for upstairs).

In the upstairs socket there is two red, a black, a blue and a yellow wire.

Both have earth wires but not counting those.

I can only get the downstairs light to work. The upstairs hallway in any combination, I can’t get it to work. Can anyone kindly offer me any advice whatsoever? I will be eternally grateful as I am losing the will.

[ElectriciansForums.net] Electrical loop removal - help!

littlespark · 2024-11-24T14:37:21+0000

Is this the new switches?
Did you you take a photo of how the old ones were connected.

We don’t know, but are the upstairs and downstairs lights on different circuits? You may have joined the two together now.

the switches appear to have an earth terminal… suggesting they are metal.
This should be connected to the back box earth terminal

alisonlcraig · 2024-11-24T14:50:05+0000

littlespark said:
Is this the new switches?
Did you you take a photo of how the old ones were connected.

We don’t know, but are the upstairs and downstairs lights on different circuits? You may have joined the two together now.

the switches appear to have an earth terminal… suggesting they are metal.
This should be connected to the back box earth terminal

Thank you - I will connect the earths to the back of the boxes. This is the new switches in the original photos and I have included a photo of what the downstairs one looked like previously.

When I only connected red and black upstairs and red and black downstairs, only the downstairs light worked. When I connect everything the downstairs socket trips.

I can’t seem to find anything on what the blue and yellow is and why there is two red wires upstairs.

Thanks so much for replying, I really do appreciate it.

littlespark · 2024-11-24T16:13:41+0000

the power is tripping because you're mixing up the two circuits.

the yellow and blue are called strappers, pass wires or travellers... and are used for two-way switching... (switching one light from 2 positions) but if i understand you you do not want that functionality(?)

Take the wire with the red/yellow/blue and take it out of the circuit at both ends. Terminate into seperate connectors and tuck into the back of the box. Meaning the red, yellow and blue of the same grey cable.
You will then be left with just one red and one black from the same grey cable at both switches to work out.

The reds both go into a terminal market "C", "Com" or "Common" depending what the switches are marked.... and the blacks into something marked "1 way", or "L1" or whatever. If the new switches are "two-way".... there will be another terminal marked "2 way" or "L2"...... this terminal is ignored; nothing goes in it.

As well as connecting the metal switch to the earth of the back box, you also want to make sure there is no excess copper showing at the terminals, (such as showing on the blue wire on the second photo) and the blacks are marked to identify them as switched lives.... (a little red tape wrapped around)

No need to say it, but always turn the power off to the circuits while you're working on it.....

Interested to know why you dont want the 2 way switching on the stairs to be honest.

alisonlcraig · 2024-11-24T17:30:44+0000

littlespark said:
the power is tripping because you're mixing up the two circuits.

the yellow and blue are called strappers, pass wires or travellers... and are used for two-way switching... (switching one light from 2 positions) but if i understand you you do not want that functionality(?)

Take the wire with the red/yellow/blue and take it out of the circuit at both ends. Terminate into seperate connectors and tuck into the back of the box. Meaning the red, yellow and blue of the same grey cable.
You will then be left with just one red and one black from the same grey cable at both switches to work out.

The reds both go into a terminal market "C", "Com" or "Common" depending what the switches are marked.... and the blacks into something marked "1 way", or "L1" or whatever. If the new switches are "two-way".... there will be another terminal marked "2 way" or "L2"...... this terminal is ignored; nothing goes in it.

As well as connecting the metal switch to the earth of the back box, you also want to make sure there is no excess copper showing at the terminals, (such as showing on the blue wire on the second photo) and the blacks are marked to identify them as switched lives.... (a little red tape wrapped around)

No need to say it, but always turn the power off to the circuits while you're working on it.....

Interested to know why you dont want the 2 way switching on the stairs to be honest.

Thank you again, really.

Downstairs: taken out blue, yellow and red - downstairs light works.

Upstairs: taken out the red, blue and yellow - upstairs light doesn’t work. (I have replaced the bulb!)

I have located a junction box in the attic which has a blue wire, might this cause the upstairs one not to work if it loops them somehow?

to answer your question, i changed the switches to silver (a double and a single gang), when i did this even though i wired them in the same way, they stopped working properly. Downstairs could control up and down. But if you had switched the upstairs light on from downstairs you couldn’t turn it off upstairs. But if it was off you could turn it on and off upstairs. I tried for weeks to work out why, but couldn’t work it out. Then I bought a Phillips hue lightbulb so thought I would simplify everything by just having two single gang switches… obviously was wrong here too!

I have called an electrician but he isn’t available for the next month so thought I would try and work it out. If you have a PayPal or similar and I can buy you a pint, please let me know! Appreciate all your help so very much.

littlespark · 2024-11-24T18:58:16+0000

I’m afraid the only way now is to get the electrician in.

Can you give us a rough area of the UK? Maybe a nearby forum member could fix it sooner.

PS Electrics · 2024-11-24T19:02:12+0000

alisonlcraig said:
Thank you again, really.

Downstairs: taken out blue, yellow and red - downstairs light works.

Upstairs: taken out the red, blue and yellow - upstairs light doesn’t work. (I have replaced the bulb!)

I have located a junction box in the attic which has a blue wire, might this cause the upstairs one not to work if it loops them somehow?

to answer your question, i changed the switches to silver (a double and a single gang), when i did this even though i wired them in the same way, they stopped working properly. Downstairs could control up and down. But if you had switched the upstairs light on from downstairs you couldn’t turn it off upstairs. But if it was off you could turn it on and off upstairs. I tried for weeks to work out why, but couldn’t work it out. Then I bought a Phillips hue lightbulb so thought I would simplify everything by just having two single gang switches… obviously was wrong here too!

I have called an electrician but he isn’t available for the next month so thought I would try and work it out. If you have a PayPal or similar and I can buy you a pint, please let me know! Appreciate all your help so very much.

A few observations

There is too much copper showing on the terminations you have made.

Don't cut short the red, yellow and blue cables but terminate them into a suitable connector like a wago. I know you haven't said you would cut them but just saying, just so in the future if two way needs to be restored it can be easily.

Something else to check since you said you have had a trip event whilst wiring up the switches is that the switch is still operational. When I was young went to a job like this and after much head scratching as to what had happened worked out that at some point the switch drops had been wired in the ceiling rose so it shorted live to neutral when operated. This had fused the switch so it was permanently on no matter how you switched it, of course it could also have resulted in the switch being blown so it never operates which might be what has happened here. What littlespark told you was correct and it should really work unless there is something else we are not aware of.

That junction box is a bit of a mess and there looks to be unsheathed cpcs but if I was you I wouldn't try to change anything there if it was working before it should work now you could end up creating even further problems if you mess with it. With the blue there is a brown so that isn't going to be the blue from your two way. Looks like a point has been added with the new colours.

alisonlcraig · 2024-11-24T19:17:25+0000

PS Electrics said:
A few observations

There is too much copper showing on the terminations you have made.

Don't cut short the red, yellow and blue cables but terminate them into a suitable connector like a wago. I know you haven't said you would cut them but just saying, just so in the future if two way needs to be restored it can be easily.

Something else to check since you said you have had a trip event whilst wiring up the switches is that the switch is still operational. When I was young went to a job like this and after much head scratching as to what had happened worked out that at some point the switch drops had been wired in the ceiling rose so it shorted live to neutral when operated. This had fused the switch so it was permanently on no matter how you switched it, of course it could also have resulted in the switch being blown so it never operates which might be what has happened here. What littlespark told you was correct and it should really work unless there is something else we are not aware of.

That junction box is a bit of a mess and there looks to be unsheathed cpcs but if I was you I wouldn't try to change anything there if it was working before it should work now you could end up creating even further problems if you mess with it. With the blue there is a brown so that isn't going to be the blue from your two way. Looks like a point has been added with the new colours.

Thank you! I am wondering about something you said re the ceiling rose - when I changed the light in the hallway, and took off the old ceiling rose there was about 2 inches of the blue wire attached onto presumably the black wire.
I discarded it because it came away with the old light rose. I will leave everything be now, and wait for the professionals.
I am based in Glasgow if anyone is nearby!

Thank you both again for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.