no felt on roof??

grandfortune · Oct 6, 2011

Hi gh all,

starting first install today, there are two roofs like this birds eye view

[ElectriciansForums.net] no felt on roof??

the larger roof has no felt under the tiles, me and the two other firms who quoted missed it as we only accessed the smaller roof area as the ladder was there and you cant tell its an extention so didnt realise(skool boy error), ive told her and shes fine with it as is the roofer," its been there 50 years so will last another 50" he said, but am i ok to carry on or is there something i must do to meet MCS standards??.

Worcester · Oct 7, 2011

You need to ensure that it is weather proof, for 25 years.

MCS says it has to be done to buidling regs.

It wouldn't meet current building regs and if you got the building inspector out, then he wouldn't hesitate to say strip it, felt it and re-batten it.

In that old method, the tiles are supposed to be properly bedded on mortar, the mortar has clearly fallen away in parts, so the current roof is not in a satisfactory condition for installing PV on and is in need of remedial work.

What would you do if there was a wired fuse board in the house.. put another fuse in it for your inverter ?

I did a survey a few weeks ago, and was the only one of three to pick up the same thing on the roof, customer is having that part of the roof completely stripped, felted and re-tiled.

The others poked their heads into the loft and both missed it. - We got the job.

grandfortune · Oct 7, 2011

Not the answer i was looking for but i know your right, im in a tricky situation now, i feel i should have picked it up, she's fine with it going up as is. the roofer said he'd put a cement mix up where weve been. dont know what to do, i assume it would cost a few grand to do, if i knew that information before hand i wouldnt have had the PV put up,ggrrrr

thanks for your reply
Grand

Worcester · Oct 7, 2011

Just got back from this survey:

(Rotten felt - it's fallen away took out one of the polystyrene panels and it's rotten all over, timbers, battens and tiles Ok, so will need to strip all the tiles, battens and old felt, put in new breathable felt, battens and replace the tiles.)

Prospect had actually been following my posts on the forum, hence he offered me the chance to quote, he didn't mention his roof, when I saw it I asked him up into the loft and said I wouldn't install without re-roofing it first.

No surprise, I was the only one who picked it up the previous two were happy to install as is ...

In fact he also knew that it won't last 25 years and despite not telling me before, it was the specific reason he contacted me!

From the outside it looked fine, and the small extension roof was in very good order, - I always check ALL roof spaces!

p.s. he actually said it was OK to post his photos here without me asking!

It pays to do the right thing.

SolarCity · Oct 8, 2011

Surpried that this wasn't picked up. The rotting felt is almost certainly due to a leak.

solarsavings · Oct 9, 2011

BiggsSolar said:
The rotting felt is almost certainly due to a leak.

I'd bet it isn't. The phot's not clear enough to be able to determine what the cause of failure was but a leak would be last on the list.

Absence of felt might not necessarily be a problem. Can ensure you leave the roof weather tight?

There are a good many rooves having PV fitted to them all over the country that have an underfelt but the battens and or fixings will not last twenty five years. And a good many where the tiles wont last that long either. Of course if you think putting PV on roof means that no further maintenance will be needed..................

SolarCity · Oct 9, 2011

solarsavings said:
I'd bet it isn't. The phot's not clear enough to be able to determine what the cause of failure was but a leak would be last on the list..

How so?

solarsavings · Oct 9, 2011

Take a look at the back of the tiles, the battens, the rafters, the purlins and then look at the felt.

As I said the photo's not clear enough to see the type of felt used, could be paper or hessian backed or a traditional slaters underfelt at the end of it's life (helped on by the insulation). better photo's or a site visit needed ;-)

grandfortune · Oct 9, 2011

now dont shoot me down here guys as im certainly not a roofer, but by that picture the tiles seem to be in a line and no staggered, i thought the staggering of the tiles prevented the leaking. or am i thinking of different tile types??

cheers
grand

solarsavings · Oct 9, 2011

They're interlocking concrete, probably Redland 49's

Worcester · Oct 9, 2011

The felt is good old roofing felt installed when the property was built in the late 50's early 60's, it's simply reached the end of it's life.

No leaks the tiles are fine, (They're interlocking tiles, so less lap needed). As soon as you put in the roof hooks, even with the best roofers in the in the world going to leave a few more gaps between the tiles, they will still be waterproof though

I'll go back to the reason for felt - as a secondary waterproofing layer (to the tiles), that's it's secondary function. It's primary function is to resist the uplift pressure from the wind, i.e. to stop the tiles being sucked off the roof (tiles don't get blown off, they get sucked off first, then blown away). The battens and underfelt are stucturally designed to resist uplift, and take that pressure away from the tiles.

No choice the roof has to be reflelted.

There are a good many rooves having PV fitted to them all over the country that have an underfelt but the battens and or fixings will not last twenty five years. And a good many where the tiles wont last that long either

Well there shouldn't be, if there are obvious faults, or faults that are discovered during installation, the customer should be made formally aware. It's actually the law of tort - if you don't make them aware you could be found legally liable later on - irrespective of any contract , tort overrides contracts. Even Limited companies aren't immune to tort.

No different from when you do an electrical inspection.

solarsavings · Oct 9, 2011

I've just been swearing at the use of weasel words used in the new guide draft so I'll come back this later.

except for these two quotes from a propective customers last week.

We mentioned your concerns about our roof to a structual engineer friend, who kindly had a look. He agrees entirely with you, and whilst it would most likely be OK without, we are very pleased that you propose to brace the structure. He confirms that, though flimsy, our roof trusses are adequate to take the additional load of panels. Seeing some wood blocks in the gable ends, he thinks there might be end restraint in a form other than steel straps

This was a 70's built house mentioned in another thread with no bracing,binders restraint straps............it will most likely be OK.

He says that whilst there is no problem with planning permission, both Cambridge and South Cambs LAs require Building Regs approval, which would pose a potential problem on sale when the requisite papers on file would make life much easier. If this is not covered by you, we would like his company to provide the necessary certificates to the building regs department, at our additional expense.

So someone who doesn't think remedial work is necessary still wants a slice of the pie. and that my friends is where we're heading, the suits getting another slice of the action.

Worcester · Oct 9, 2011

@Solarsavings

As you know MCS is NOT a competent persons scheme, some MCS certification bodies do include competent person assement for some or all parts of the relevant parts of the buidling regs (the new guide actually clears this up)

We have recently had a rather interesting discussion with one BC department, because we are MCS certifed and we have competent person certificatio for the relevant parts of the building regs, however those discussions have interestingly cause a rather high level involvement with our certifying body!

Net effect "If this is not covered by you" - that depends upon YOUR specific certifying body, if you are certified, are you going to let any such doubt creep into your clinets mind, and even worse let such doubt creep into the BC dept's mind? Your are either 'a competent person' or you aren't.

If you are then you are able to issue the nescessary certificates.

solarsavings · Oct 9, 2011

As you know worcester at the moment there is a draft of the "new guide" which may yet be changed.

That aside. You do a site survey as I did, you find, as I did that the roof structure is not structurally sound. You make your potential client aware of the faults you found. They then contact a professional for reassurance? only to be told it will most probably be OK :0

I should worry about my registration body or the local BCO? (We are covered for parts A & C)
I worry that "competent" is applied to the tradesman in a way that it isn't to those in suits. Still, they have PI for that.

Got this job anyway so I'll leave it to the client to decide if they want to spend money on the SE.

no felt on roof??

grandfortune

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SolarCity

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