Washing Machine in Bathroom

Outspoken · Apr 26, 2013

Low voltage electrocutions and fatal electrical burns from low voltage electricity supplies

Country	Year of Data	Extrapolated Instances	Recorded Instances	Major Injuries	Total Deaths ( Inc. Fire )	Death from shock cause only
UK	2010/2011	2,500,000	350,000	120,573	254	28
France	2010	8,300,00	1,200,585	357,642	2,584	241
Germany	2010	5,400,00	2,807,548	468,524	2,113	193
Spain	2009	11,200,000	684,524	2,133,476	87,244	22,573
United States	2010/2011	34,500,00	11,245,973	2,457,663	158,473	57,627
Mexico	2009	18,700,000	876,542	387,991	289,241	Not recorded
Brazil	2010	18,250,000	1,864,551	846,552	79,241	25,445
India	2008	98,000,000	16,112,300	1,542,119	198,537	Not Recorded
South Africa	2009	4,800,000	1,937,112	78,336	52,010	791
Australia	2011	750,000	112,763	24,497	2,548	31
New Zealand	2011	120,000	57,684	18,463	103	18
Russia	2010	32,500,000	3,584,337	879,246	73,582	5,843
Poland	2011	12,600,000	297,665	193,542	14,311	1,967
Canada	2011	285,000	98,246	25,887	112	12

Here we go, all that comes from several sources and is courtesy of the International Electrotechnical Committee.

Now clearly the UK is not the best in terms of absolutes, but take into account population and then do the maths...I was surprised by France and Germany, did not expect them to be so high. I have included the deaths attributable to fires started by electrical faults as these are classed as "electrical deaths". There was information about the breakdown of those figures to those attributable to faulty installations and faulty equipment but I thought the figures above would be sufficient to demonstrate the point that the UK is amongst the safest, if not the safest, country in the world for electric shock.

The UK deaths are broken down into 6 Professional Electricians/Engineers and the rest are Domestic deaths or those unqualified in commercial settings, only 6 deaths overall (From total deaths) were in commercial premises, the rest are all domestic fires.

Sadly there is no breakdown of these figures into similar detail as there is for the UK, the UK data is from the HSE website.

specs · Apr 26, 2013

Sockets in bathrooms... no. Ext leads in bathrooms.... not our jurisdiction, user will do whatever they want, regardless . W/machines in bathrooms, seen it a few times, always in a cupboard, never seen one just sitting there all lonely and in the middle of the floor. My opinion, i would never install unless it was enclosed in a cupboard and on rcd or 12v battery (max) operated supply.

Engineer54 · Apr 26, 2013

Could you pass on this link, either here or through the PM. I have a distinct dislike for tabulated reports of this type, as most of them can be pulled apart at it's routes!! lol!!

Outspoken · Apr 26, 2013

Engineer54 said:
Could you pass on this link, either here or through the PM. I have a distinct dislike for tabulated reports of this type, as most of them can be pulled apart at it's routes!! lol!!

See my post, I said it was various sources not a specific table, I put it in table form in no particular order as it made it easier for me to post the information here. The majority is fro the IEC pages for members, the English data is a combination of the HSE and the CIBSE websites...oddly enough the hardest data to find was the US.

I am not claiming the figures are 100% accurate as I cannot speak for any data other that the UK and possibly the German and French records within Europe. Aus and NZ tend to pretty decent at recording this type of stat so I suspect they are reliable. However without know the criteria that was used for each data set on what was or was not an electrical related death or injury I accept this is up in the air.

The data is a guide to support my comment about the UK and our electrical installation safety as a result of some of the best regs in the world, even if they are written in legalise by lawyer wannabees who redefine grey statements!

If you can find any other data from reliable sources by all means do, however I would suggest if we are going to discuss this at length, which I have no problem with, it should, perhaps, be in a separate thread so we do not highjack this any more than we already have.

spark 68 · Apr 26, 2013

BTW I believe NZ repealed their part P laws :wink_smile:

So that's why they have better figures than us lol.:50:

oldtimer · Apr 26, 2013

well our figures are that low so whats the point of Part P lol

spark 68 · Apr 26, 2013

oldtimer said:
well our figures are that low so whats the point of Part P lol

Come on OT, you know the reasons for that :wink_smile: lol, so we can give our hard earned to the ' scam providers' :45:
'

Engineer54 · Apr 27, 2013

That's the trouble with statistics you can make them show whatever the author wants them to show, depending on what angle your coming from. To be honest i have no intention of trolling all the various sources. But compiling them as you have done above, without a common criteria can't be done and probably why your seeing such wide discrepancies between these western nations. It also pretty much proves nothing...

By the way, the US and Canada have pretty much the same codes, (both allow the same RCD outlets in bathrooms) So there is something very wrong somewhere in the criteria and statistic's being used, even if you make allowances for population differences. It's going to be the same for all those western countries with internationally recognised electrical codes!!

It certainly doesn't and won't change my mind on protected outlets in Bathrooms... lol!!

Adam W · Apr 27, 2013

Doesn't the 'no sockets in bathrooms' rule reinforce the idea that mixing water and electricity is a bad idea?

I was brought up on that and still respect it, but maybe the British are sticklers for obeying rules.

Perhaps the 18th edition could be updated to include sockets in bathrooms with 10mA protection so make things more convenient, or greatly reduced to something along the lines of:
"Just do what you want as long as it works".

spark 68 · Apr 27, 2013

TBF I don't see a problem with it if it was on it's own circuit with a 10mA RCD, or even a 6mA jobby.

Of course suitably positioned away from water jets and the like

tazz · Apr 27, 2013

Suitable Positon and being plumbed in correctly is the key....

[ElectriciansForums.net] Washing Machine in Bathroom

Engineer54 · Apr 27, 2013

Let's hope the rawl bolts hold!! lol!! I wouldn't like to be sitting on that thrown when the washing machine is in spin mode with an unbalanced load being thrown about inside it!! lol!!

Outspoken · Apr 27, 2013

I suppose if your constipated and you sit under it on a spin cycle it may solve the problem .

Outspoken · Apr 27, 2013

Engineer54 said:
That's the trouble with statistics you can make them show whatever the author wants them to show, depending on what angle your coming from. To be honest i have no intention of trolling all the various sources. But compiling them as you have done above, without a common criteria can't be done and probably why your seeing such wide discrepancies between these western nations. It also pretty much proves nothing...

By the way, the US and Canada have pretty much the same codes, (both allow the same RCD outlets in bathrooms) So there is something very wrong somewhere in the criteria and statistic's being used, even if you make allowances for population differences. It's going to be the same for all those western countries with internationally recognised electrical codes!!

It certainly doesn't and won't change my mind on protected outlets in Bathrooms... lol!!

You are clearly implying some form of massaging or manipulation of the data and you would be wrong on that, it is simply the raw data as I found it with some spurious breakdowns removed to avoid an overly complicated table and confusing the issue.

I agree that data can be manipulated and your comment about the US and Canada and their codes is such a straw man argument that it does not do you justice. I lived in Canada for 5 years more than 20 years ago and worked all over the States due to the work, and education and attitude is a major issue south of the border, like it or not.

We also need to take into account that in the UK if the Fire Brigade are unable to find the cause of a fire they list it as "Electrical", it is likely that other nations may do the same, and if this is the case then there could well be a lot of records that are simply incorrectly labelled by the relevant authorities.

With regards sockets in bathrooms, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

diabalo · Apr 27, 2013

The main problem with the kind of stats we have is that they do not discriminate well. What is at stake is a proper empirical understanding of the way in which compliant installations exceed the safety of installations which are non-compliant, or compliant but installed by an amateur. Although we know theoretically that modern standards and practice are potentially much safer than previously a decline in electrically related fatalities doesn't mean that it is entirely the result of regulations or compliance with regard to fixed wiring installations. We need to collect much better, detailed data to prove that and I doubt that we will ever see such data. Improvements in fire safety education, use of equipment, quality of consumer products and whole range of other building control practices need to be controlled for.
Governments pass all kinds of legislation all the time based on poor or no real evidence in all spheres from health to education to social policy. Interesting that NZ have repealled their Part p. Didn't know that. I wonder what they based that on?