Car chargers/Professional Electrician

Deleted member 9648 · Jun 14, 2013

Anyone read the article on car charger points in the latest PE mag?
It talks about earthing systems and states that if a garage is NOT on a TNS/TNCS earthing arrangement it may not be possible to install an electric car charger port as a TT earth means there has to be 10m between it and any conductive parts on the garage.....Cant see anything specific in the BGB on electric car chargers so where is this coming from?

telectrix · Jun 14, 2013

could it be "let's make up a new regulation" at the niceic tea party?

ChrisElectrical88 · Jun 14, 2013

From what I have seen its only the NIC running this course so it will be whatever cock and bull they have decided say around their desk.

Richard Burns · Jun 14, 2013

This is the ridiculous information in the IEE guidance note on Electric vehicle charging points, I think it derives from accessible parts on different earthing systems; car is 4m long, cable is five metres so the end of the car has to be away from another earthing system. Wholly impractical in any domestic situation.
It also states that if you have a TNS earthing system then you must be able to ensure that it is not near any TNCS and will not be converted to TNCS at any time in the future!
And TT earthing is preferred over any other earthing system!

Sharpend · Jun 14, 2013

New amendments to regs part 722 due out in July covers all things electric vehicle charging.

Deleted member 9648 · Jun 14, 2013

Richard Burns said:
This is the ridiculous information in the IEE guidance note on Electric vehicle charging points, I think it derives from accessible parts on different earthing systems; car is 4m long, cable is five metres so the end ofthe car has to be away from another earthing system. Wholly impractical in nay domestic situation.
It also states that if you have a TNS earthing system then you must be able to ensure that it is not near any TNCS and will not be converted to TNCS at any time in the future!
And TT earthing is preferred over any other earthing sytem!

Ah!...so it has come from somewhere....but extract from PE mag-

"Small sites without a garage on TNS/TNCS supplies may not be suitable for an EVCP installation,due to the specific issues of safety relating to the earthing of equipment where located outside of the equipotential zone. The close proximity of conductive parts on the users property and neighbouring installations may preclude the use of a TT system of earthing due to the 10m separation distance required"

Now I read that as saying a TT may not be an option...or maybe I am reading it wrong?

Richard Burns · Jun 14, 2013

I think the idea from IEE is to convert everything to TT so it is now safe!

Here are some extracts from the guidance note covering simultaneous contact and methods to overcome this!
Hope they are readable.

Engineer54 · Jun 15, 2013

You'd have to be a complete bloody idiot, to change out a domestic's PME supply in favour of a TT system, just to charge a car!! If that's the best the IEE can come up with, god help us all!!

rocker · Jun 15, 2013

Well, 'You gotta go backwards to go forwards' is the IEE's motto, after all.

jeffelectric · Jun 15, 2013

i am installing an outdoor socket 13amp for a nissan leaf slow charger it draws 10amps. The people selling £600 charge stations say not to do this, because 10amp is a lot of strain on a 13amp socket. oh and it is not on it's own dedicated circuit. customer wants a outdoor socket on a rcd protected ring he can use it for what he wants,

johnboy6083 · Jun 15, 2013

You treat this as you treat any system with different potentials. You bond them together. The neighbouring property 99.9% of the time will be on the same distribution circuit, so effectively bonded.
Generators and transformers have to be bonded to any metalwork that is within reach to avoid a rise in potential, especially during fault conditions. I beleive it's in GN8, but in my experience, we've done it on site.

Rockingit · Jun 15, 2013

What gets me, is who IS IT that's signing up and paying money for these stupid 'courses' anyway?!!

Dcf · Jun 15, 2013

Run an extension from the garage.
job done.
or am I missing something

Silly Sausage · Jun 15, 2013

Rockingit said:
What gets me, is who IS IT that's signing up and paying money for these stupid 'courses' anyway?!!

Idiots?????

shanky887614 · Jun 15, 2013

there moaning about a 10amp load on 13amp sockets?

why are they not moaning about a 13amp socket on a 16 or 32amp breaker?

besides most plug tops have 13amp fuses in them so no problems

amlu · Jun 15, 2013

had a catalogue from nic/eca/elecsa selling their overpriced gadgets. some of them are vehicle charging points, mentioning "special communication" between vehicle and socket? .... are they any different to a 16amp socket? or just 10x the price and fancy enclosure?

Silly Sausage · Jun 15, 2013

amlu said:
had a catalogue from nic/eca/elecsa selling their overpriced gadgets. some of them are vehicle charging points, mentioning "special communication" between vehicle and socket? .... are they any different to a 16amp socket? or just 10x the price and fancy enclosure?

Yet another money making opportunity landed on their laps?!?!

What's happened to their Charitable status, can't seem to find it on the NICEIC website?
Hope you all get share options when they go PLC!!!

Sharpend · Jun 15, 2013

If you attended a course you'd learn that the reason that people are advised against the standard plug top are; 1) it needs 10-12hrs to fully charge, 2) can not claim any grants for install 3) does not communicate with car to optimise battery life.

Hence the different Mode chargers.
But then that's why there is a course for ELVC! Now who's the idiot?

Silly Sausage · Jun 15, 2013

Sharpend said:
If you attended a course you'd learn that the reason that people are advised against the standard plug top are; 1) it needs 10-12hrs to fully charge, 2) can not claim any grants for install 3) does not communicate with car to optimise battery life.

Hence the different Mode chargers.
But then that's why there is a course for ELVC! Now who's the idiot?

Certainly not me!
I got all my electrical quals through 'Proper' Further/Higher Education establishments, at a reasonable price, not money grabbing enterprises like NICEIC and all these training providers.

I'm all for training, just the way one goes about it that concerns me.

Sharpend · Jun 15, 2013

Seeing as I wasn't paying I wasn't particularly bothered, although I will confess they didn't have the best presentation I've seen for a course. So I wouldn't necessarily pay to attend!!

Rockingit · Jun 15, 2013

Sharpend said:
If you attended a course you'd learn that the reason that people are advised against the standard plug top are; 1) it needs 10-12hrs to fully charge, what has that got to do with how it's connected?! 2) can not claim any grants for install if it's only £10 for the parts, who needs a grant? 3) does not communicate with car to optimise battery life. Nor does my mobile, nor does my Li-on cell charger, etc....they all have it 'built in'.

Hence the different Mode chargers.
But then that's why there is a course for ELVC! Now who's the idiot?

:dupe: I'm saying nothing.

Sharpend · Jun 15, 2013

If you knew about the different connection devices then you know that they have differing charge times.
I'd also like to see you run a car on you mobile phone battery!

still seeing as you know so much then I can't teach the un-teachable. Sorry

Engineer54 · Jun 16, 2013

Sharpend said:
If you attended a course you'd learn that the reason that people are advised against the standard plug top are; 1) it needs 10-12hrs to fully charge, 2) can not claim any grants for install3) does not communicate with car to optimise battery life.

Hence the different Mode chargers.
But then that's why there is a course for ELVC! Now who's the idiot?

That's fair enough, but do you really need a training course, to explain those points?? Surely every every mode charger for a particular make of car (unless they are standardised universal mode chargers) would come with a set of installation instructions and user manual etc!!

As a matter of interest, what did this training course cover??

GLENNSPARK · Jun 16, 2013

telectrix said:
could it be "let's make up a new regulation" at the niceic tea party?

and lets make up a new course n all...
NIC electric vehicle charging course £129 for registered....£150 for registered....both + vat
course duration= 1 day

Engineer54 · Jun 17, 2013

Then just wait until the C&G institute sees another money making qualification they can tap into, the same way they cottoned on to the PAT testing Cert!!!!

Then you'll have all the non technical idiots calling for this cert, if you want to install such a system, same way they do now for anyone who wants to carry out brain numbing PAT testing!!