18 Days to come qualified

[Redvanman]

I was amazed when told about this

Bronze: Domestic Installer Course

You even get to pass the test and inspect course.

is this really possible starting with no knowledge

Christ this really is belittling our trade. Now I know why I make a good living of sorting out bodge jobs.

 

[ruston]

......


View attachment 19594

And here is us worrying about training courses, that is disgusting.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

And here is us worrying about training courses, that is disgusting.

whats up....
you have a perfectly functioning drive there...

 

[UNG]

its all about divide & rule....

The industry is well divided as to who is ruling it is another matter

I'd say it's never too late. The politicians found a way to fragment and dumb-down the industry, given sufficient motivation they could take it in the reverse direction. I think the motivation is the issue rather than there being no solution.

I'd say you are way out of touch with UK and European politics

I blame the Scheme providers who jumped on the back of the MP who's daughter was killed hence the push for Part P that thank God we do not have up here . Now my business is repair and maintenance and specialise in fault finding because I have done it all my days I like to solve problems and the way I approach this is when the customer asks me if I have any evidence I am an electrician I hand them my SJIB grade card and most of the time they apologise for having to ask but I always reassure them that they are quite right because there are guys getting certified after 5 weeks when it took me 6 years. Plus its not easy when you see some clown on Homes Under the Hammer and the interviewer says hey I hear you are now a qualified electrician now so no more getting ripped off with you property portfolio and the reply from the clown is O yea anybody can do it, its a dead easy. This is the same HUTH that the presenter pointed to a CB only CU and said yes the property is ok because it has a safety CU fitted Good God.

So for me I just educate and inform the customer and let them make their mind up plus we have had this discussion on this forum before re the Electrical Trainee adds and thank goodness that somewhere else has the integrity not to have them its a bit like money lenders in a church

The scheme providers never existed prior to Part P as to the MP's daughter being electrocuted I have read so many reports on this that I am not sure the blame can be wholly attributed to an electrician when some one decided to fix some thing to a kitchen wall that happened to become live

It's not my decision who advertises on the forum, I have no say in this whatsoever. Given they're as much a part of the electrical industry landscape as they are, if it was my decision they'd stay as advertisers. I've already stated my view that I don't think the training providers are to blame, they don't make the laws and they don't set the technical requirements or standards of the electrical courses.

The 15 day. 18 day, Electrical Trainee only exist due to the training providers exploiting a competent persons scheme designed to increase the end users safety and reduce the number of people out of work

The training providers are peddling an impossible dream and you may be playing devils advocate but even you would have to agree no one is going make the grade in 18 days

 

[Essexboy7]

I have found one for 15 days, please ignore my comments, just cant help a little bit of sarcasm occassionally, especially when I am a DI! mg_smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJrOlM_RJ8

I notice that comments are now not accepted on there LOL

 

[Marvo]

I'd say you are way out of touch with UK and European politics

You're probably right.

The scheme providers never existed prior to Part P as to the MP's daughter being electrocuted I have read so many reports on this that I am not sure the blame can be wholly attributed to an electrician when some one decided to fix some thing to a kitchen wall that happened to become live

The 15 day. 18 day, Electrical Trainee only exist due to the training providers exploiting a competent persons scheme designed to increase the end users safety and reduce the number of people out of work

The training providers are peddling an impossible dream and you may be playing devils advocate but even you would have to agree no one is going make the grade in 18 days

I thought the scheme providers were around long before partp but I may be wrong.

I agree the training providers are peddling the impossible dream but hey, so is the state lottery, it's not illegal. I am playing devils advocate to some degree, I'm under no illusions the training providers are angels, I've seen their websites many of which reek of sharp business practices and exploitation (which I'm sure they'd class as marketing) but whilst they're certainly 'riding it' to quote Glenn and whilst I certainly have zero respect for the whole training provider industry they didn't set the required technical standard andthey didn't make the laws and for the most-part although their marketing and business models may well be the epitome of moral bankruptcy they're not doing anything that's illegal and they're going to be around until the law is ammended.

 

[oldtimer]

The scheme providers never existed prior to Part P as to the MP's daughter being electrocuted I have read so many reports on this that I am not sure the blame can be wholly attributed to an electrician when some one decided to fix some thing to a kitchen wall that happened to become live

Ung your comment above does not make sense up here Select & NICEIC have been trading since I got in the game 38 years ago don't know about Elesca ect

 

[dubsparks]

l

**** sake it's four years over here in Ireland . With around twenty tests thru out it . Lazy irish should have just taken a holiday over to you.s and taken the eighteen weeks

 

[Guitarist]

With this set of qualifications and skills you can be confident you will be fully equipped...

Read more: Bronze: Domestic Installer Course

I am just speechless, I really am....

 

[oldtimer]

Part P has made a mockery of our trade the idea was poorly planned and the Schemes instead of making it work they have in my view been negligent in dragging our trade to the lowest level for the sake of profit Remember the the house of commons enquiry said they had a clear conflict of interests before watering it down. Now the trick is to make the mugs sorry members think that it is still valid whilst not even policing it except if someone is using their badge

 

[Sparky Ninja]

oh , but there is !

the new part p qualified supervisor course is................

















wait for it.............
















1 day :-D

It's 2 years actually.

Unfortunately the competent person schemes are ignoring this though.
They are still enrolling people with just 17th edition and a little testing experience - even after the April 6th deadline which they all manged to prolong for a year.

 

[gazj82]

After I had been an apprentice for four years I still didn't know it all. After working in the trade for 15 years I still don't know it all. I am very competent but still (and will never!) know it ALL!

After 18 days you still can't use a pair of cutters compentently let alone anything else.

On another note, my Wifes step dad went on some 2 week plumbing course, when I next saw him he was very pleased with himself and said "I can do plumbing now!". Lets say the conversation turned quite sour after I pointed out to him "No you can't!, not after two weeks"

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Part P has made a mockery of our trade the idea was poorly planned and the Schemes instead of making it work they have in my view been negligent in dragging our trade to the lowest level for the sake of profit Remember the the house of commons enquiry said they had a clear conflict of interests before watering it down. Now the trick is to make the mugs sorry members think that it is still valid whilst not even policing it except if someone is using their badge

reported the guy from a few weeks ago for fraudulantly using the elecsa badge (unless he`s recently got himself regisitered that is)...whilst i pay my yearly fees....still waiting for a response....but i will chase it up...

 

[flyingsausage]

Qualified, on paper... Yes
Able to register on a Scheme, Yes according to T4U.
Competent.. NO
Experienced..NO
Capable of working unsupervised..NO
Capable of becoming Self employed with enough income to live..NO
Suitable for employment by others..NO, unless the employer themselves have done a similar course.

Straight to the point I like that.

 

[flyingsausage]

If this is an eighteen day course the Electrical Trainee's will start to either feel ripped of or over qualified.

You could just imagine a Electrical Trainee struting his stuff and acting like an experienced man to an 18 day wonder.
Then the Electrical Trainee will meet a real spark that served a proper apprenticeship and got his approved ticket and then realise how unskilled and dangerous he is,when the real spark shows his knowledge.

 

[Guitarist]

If this is an eighteen day course the Electrical Trainee's will start to either feel ripped of or over qualified.

You could just imagine a Electrical Trainee struting his stuff and acting like an experienced man to an 18 day wonder.
Then the Electrical Trainee will meet a real spark that served a proper apprenticeship and got his approved ticket and then realise how unskilled and dangerous he is,when the real spark shows his knowledge.

Don't be silly. Electrical Trainee's aren't trained to interact with people.

 

[flyingsausage]

I recently snagged a new house wire, fully signed off already by a newly qualified electrician who was NIC Domestic Installer. He had been trading for 4 months or so. The new owners called me in as I had rewired their parents home some years ago. They were having numerous problems and the original sparks was AWOL. Here is a list of what I had to do.

Re-do the 3 way lighting to hall stairs and landing as the intermediate switch was incorrectly wired.
Replace badly wired recessed downlights as cables were scorched
Re-site the above as 3 were up against beams.
Rewire fan isolators as fans were on permanently
Fix compression faults in cooker and shower boxes as 6mm and 10mm cable squeezed into 25mm boxes.
Remove DG socket from above sink
Fit link cables between mains fire alarms. ( They were non radio linked ,individually powered from lighting roses.
Conductor identification throughout house ( there was none)
Heat alarm to kitchen (smoke fitted)
Extend smoke alarm system to intregal garage ( nothing there) to fit heat alarm
Mark up CU
Reconfigure CU ( was a mess)
Fit earth to water
Rewire central heating system ( S plan +) CH only working when HW enabled
Fit waterproof socket outside ( Metal DG socket fitted there)
Find and fix earth pulled from ring in Lounge

There were a few other things but you get the picture I guess

Qualifications mean nothing, experience is everything

By the time you charged them for hours and materials and the cost of the original job,it would have been much cheaper to get a proper spark to do the job in the first place.

Where you said they put 6mm and 10 mm cable into 25mm boxes is very scary and I would never have thought that was possible,there must have been a risk off arcing between the terminals and the back box(if it was metal).I also would not trust the terminations as they must have been under a lot of sideways pressure to get fitted into a box that is far too small.

 

[trev]

I wonder if our friend NICEIC engineer would like to pass comment on how he feels about this. Not trotting out the party line, his own opinion.

 

[flyingsausage]

They have a vested interest in maintaining the staus quo as it is that which is providing them with a living. Surely the trade as a whole should be getting together to drive standards up not down. I know that bit is slightly off topic but the training providers have the ear of the scams, the scams have the ear of the government

Training for safety at work has turned into an industry in it's own right and it has plenty of money to lobby for more compulsory training under the guise of safety.The CSCS or ECS ticket to renew your grade card if a like a tax to earn your living.
This type of training is much the same,you will find that the owners of these training centers are tied into the schemes that you call scams,and they are making a good real of money from mugs that believe what they are told to sign up for the course and be a spark at the end of it.

 

[flyingsausage]

Along the same lines as this thread

Last year a friend of mines parents bought a small bungalow to retire in,it was quite old and in need of a full rewire,windows,kitchen,bathroom,roof,gutters etc.
I went round to have a look at it and they asked me to recommend someone to rewire it,I gave them two names and numbers and said they will not be the cheapest but they will do a good job and come back to sort any issues.
AND ALWAYS ASK TO SEE THE GRADE CARD OF ANY ONE YOU ASK TO COME ROUND TO GIVE YOU A QUOTE.

They tried the two sparks I gave them and thought that they were a bit expensive so decided to try other so called sparks that advertised in the local paper - they tried four different numbers and had four different chancers.
It seems that when they wanted look at a grade card that two of them could not get out there fast enough.
One did not seem to have a clue what he was talking about electrical wise and the fourth admited he was a plumber.

So it seemed that out of the four different ones they tried they never got a decent spark between.

My friends parents then went with one of the sparks I recommended and were very happy with him and his work,and he came back twice to fix a couple of little things and never charged to coming back.
It goes to show that word of mouth is important and if the customer thinks they will save money with a cheaper quote most of the time they will be spending more as they have to get someone into fix the orginal installation.

 

[flyingsausage]

Trev - I have just came across this thread and I know these scam trainers are out there but it goes right on my nerves how wrong it is that they even exist and are seemingly getting plenty of men out there who are happy to put their hands in their pocket every week and give these scumbags a good living.
And only after they do these qualifications that they are next to useless in the real world.

 

[flyingsausage]

It's not my decision who advertises on the forum, I have no say in this whatsoever. Given they're as much a part of the electrical industry landscape as they are, if it was my decision they'd stay as advertisers. I've already stated my view that I don't think the training providers are to blame, they don't make the laws and they don't set the technical requirements or standards of the electrical courses.

They are just the same as agencies,they are parasites selling a useless and dangerous product to stupid misinformed public.

 

[Marvo]

They are just the same as agencies,they are parasites selling a useless and dangerous product to stupid misinformed public.

I'm not disagreeing but rather go after the cause than the symptoms. If you want them gone it's pointless going after them one by one, even if you do manage to get rid of one or two of them, others will just take their place. Rather focus your efforts and lobby the legislators. If there's enough people making enough noise you'd be surprised what can be achieved. Here's a text-book case in point link

 

[Guitarist]

I'm not disagreeing but rather go after the cause than the symptoms. If you want them gone it's pointless going after them one by one, even if you do manage to get rid of one or two of them, others will just take their place. Rather focus your efforts and lobby the legislators. If there's enough people making enough noise you'd be surprised what can be achieved. Here's a text-book case in point link

Have you ever tried lobbying for anything here in the UK? I have, and I may have well written to my Daughter's cuddly toys for all the good it does.

 

[Beardyjar]

I qualified as an electrician in Spain 10 years ago and have worked in both the domestic sector and on Hospital installations in Spain and Africa. My course in Spain was over a year long and 2 years working for an approved electrician. Recently I sent my qualifications to the UK to see if they were transferable. I was informed that they were no accepted in any way in the UK. I would have thought it showed more training anfd experience than an 18 day course

 

[UNG]

I qualified as an electrician in Spain 10 years ago and have worked in both the domestic sector and on Hospital installations in Spain and Africa. My course in Spain was over a year long and 2 years working for an approved electrician. Recently I sent my qualifications to the UK to see if they were transferable. I was informed that they were no accepted in any way in the UK. I would have thought it showed more training anfd experience than an 18 day course

Probably way over qualified for the UK these days that's why they wouldn't accept your quals LOL.

 

[Guitarist]

You obviously haven't paid the right people to give you one of their certificates.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Here is a post i wrote on a recent thread 'military electrician'. It was in reply to a reply by 'tradesskills4u' (or a similar name).

"All the views do seem a bit extreme (including yours Trade4skills).

I do think an apprenticeship for 5 years is too much if all you want to do is domestic.. however 18 days is definitely not enough, nowhere near enough, especially if you have no electrical experience before hand. I had no prior knowledge before my 6 month domestic installers course (one evening a week) and afterwards I would not have been competent to re-wire a house, even though the tutors were brilliant. I'm a pretty intelligent guy (didn't like saying that, but its to emphasis the point) but after a year since finishing the course I am only just approaching the ability to re-wire a house and thats after spending lots of time with trained electricians.

I think the Domestic Installers course has potential but it should not be 18 days, it should be perhaps 6 months full time (also say a year part time as it attracts many people who want to keep working but try something different) which includes time spent with qualified electricians working in actual houses."

 

[Guitarist]

Being competent isn't simply about being able to "wire a circuit". We all know that even simple domestic work involves chasing walls, lifting floorboards, making good, as well as the obligatory fault-finding included with most jobs we get called-out to. There is absolutely NO WAY that I would consider anyone competent in 18 days to be let loose on somebody's home.... It's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Being competent isn't simply about being able to "wire a circuit". We all know that even simple domestic work involves chasing walls, lifting floorboards, making good, as well as the obligatory fault-finding included with most jobs we get called-out to. There is absolutely NO WAY that I would consider anyone competent in 18 days to be let loose on somebody's home.... It's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned.

I comlpetely agree Guitarist as I've said in my post, but do you think that someone who will only be working within a domestic situation should serve exactly the same length and level of apprenticeship as someone who who will be working within industry and the commercial sector? i.e a lengthy apprenticeship. In other areas of society.. medicine, teaching etc there are different levels of qualifications that dictate what level of work you can undertake. I have very little experience in the electrical industry so I could be completely wrong but I do feel that a shorter course (6 months, full time, working in actual homes with experienced electricians) may be adequate for a Domestic Installers course.

I'd be interested in what the experienced electricians think of that?

 

[oldtimer]

I wonder if our friend NICEIC engineer would like to pass comment on how he feels about this. Not trotting out the party line, his own opinion.

Na as long as you can pay your subs your in

 

[7029 dave]

in my opinion to be classed as an approved electrician you should have experience in all fields. Hence 5yrs

 

[flyingsausage]

During my time I did 22 weeks at collage in my first year and was day release for the whole of second year and I certainly did not know it all then or now.
But these courses are telling the ill informed or easily duped public that you will be competent and safe to go out into the word after an 18 day course and the money will come rolling in all by itself.

I dread to think how many unsafe and downright dangerous installations men that do these courses install and think is perfectly fine.

 

[flyingsausage]

If you think of a man that buys a saw,tape measure,tin snips,battery gun and a level and can go out and work with his mate who is a joiner and install the tin and gyproc walls,that is fine as it is not the hardest of jobs to pick up.
The joiner must make sure that his mate knows that if any gyproc boards fall from a height that they could kill any one they land on.

These unskilled men are going into a much more dangerous trade and should be trained and competent to do a good and safe install.
These men will turn out to be bodgers and leave a mess and dangerous fire risk at most installs because they simply don't know any better.
That is for the few that will manage to make a living out of it.

 

[flyingsausage]

in my opinion to be classed as an approved electrician you should have experience in all fields. Hence 5yrs

To be an approved spark up here it is the four year apprenticeship and then a further two years on the tools before you apply.

They keep changing the rules and making it harder for sparks to get their approved ticket these days - I think the larger employer's don't want to pay an extra pound an hour for someone to do the same job.

 

[Guitarist]

I comlpetely agree Guitarist as I've said in my post, but do you think that someone who will only be working within a domestic situation should serve exactly the same length and level of apprenticeship as someone who who will be working within industry and the commercial sector? i.e a lengthy apprenticeship. In other areas of society.. medicine, teaching etc there are different levels of qualifications that dictate what level of work you can undertake. I have very little experience in the electrical industry so I could be completely wrong but I do feel that a shorter course (6 months, full time, working in actual homes with experienced electricians) may be adequate for a Domestic Installers course.

I'd be interested in what the experienced electricians think of that?

I've seen what so-called electricians with minimal training do when confronted with a fault, or something out of the ordinary. Why do you think that these forums are so popular?
Apprenticeships were devised for a reason.

 

[RWJ]

Fully air-conditioned with superb refreshment facilities, easy parking and great public transport links (straight to our front door!)





I wouldn't exactly call a Klix machine superb refreshment facilities!

 

[flyingsausage]

Fully air-conditioned with superb refreshment facilities, easy parking and great public transport links (straight to our front door!)


View attachment 19906


I wouldn't exactly call a Klix machine superb refreshment facilities!

It is all in the wording,if the nearest train station or bus stop is three miles away,they would advertise it as nearby.


I bet the drinks are not free either.
I wonder if they charge you to park? means easy parking.