1st big job, would like some tips

[scampy]

Hello again all. I am about to to take on my 1st big job, so far i've added sockets lights ect but now i have the chance to do a rewire. It's a black canvas that a freind is renovationg so i have plenty of time to concentrate on doing a really good job.

I have some questions though, unfortunatly the part P course tought me the theory but has left big holes in the practice.

no1,
how far do you go with the 1st fix? my understanding is you place the cables and boxes but you do not attatche to lights and sockets.

do you go as far as setting up ganged lights and the attatching to junction boxes? He is unsure on what lights will be going in so i intend to uses junction boxes and take the switches from them, have i explained that right?

No2
How deep do you cut in. i'm going to attatch the cable directly to brick work under metal earthed protection. i'll then need to cut in the boxes. i guess i'm asking, how thick do i presume the plaster will be?

No3,
I think i know the answer to this. you do all the testing and inspection at the end of the second fix?

Cheers for your time

 

[ezzzekiel]

first fix would involve running all cables, conduit backboxes etc.
finished surface of boxes should be flush with finished plaster (about 5mm)
insp & test should be carried out progressively during erection

 

[PAUL M]

judging by the basic nature of the questions you are asking should you be doing rewires unsupervised

 

[Shakey]

judging by the basic nature of the questions you are asking should you be doing rewires unsupervised

oops, did I just say that out loud?

thats ok, it was you Paul......

 

[montybaber]

unfortunatly the part P course tought me the theory but has left big holes in the practice.

Whats a part P course

 

[No.15]

Hi Scampy,

Good luck with the job. I'm in a similar situation with being qualified as competent eek: *puts flame-proof suit on) but short on time-serving & experience.

ezzzekiel gave a useful response. If most of your back boxes are going to be 35mm, you could avoid the messy brick chasing by asking the plasterer to apply a 30mm render coat - any electrician-----plasterers out there have preferences on the first-fix electrics set out? Prefer capping or not bothered?
Watch out if you're thinking of using grid switches, the back box required may be 40mm - best to check with manufacturer.

Inspect and test all the time - it gives you the practice!

No.15

 

[montybaber]

Hi no15

you can take your flame suit off (for me anyway) personally I think lifes too short to worry about other peoples qualifications etc but I do worry about electricians going out on their own with no experience as I know how much electricity can hurt (first hand...thats another story).

Just wondering what courses deem you as qualified and competent??

 

[Carter]

....could avoid the messy brick chasing by asking the plasterer to apply a 30mm render coat....

I'm sure that any plasterer will be quite happy to double the thickness of the render & skim (and therefore his materials costs) just to please a bone idle electrician who can't be arsed to chop his boxes in. I can see it now; he'll smile down benevolently at you, ruffle your hair like the cheeky little scamp you are then tell you to "---- right off!" He may then start pointing and laughing.

 

[No.15]

Hello Montybaber,

I've taken and passed the VRQ Level 2 Domestic electrical installer part p course, which confirms I'm competent to carry out and self-certify domestic electrical work. It also means that any work I do will comply with Part P of the Building Regulations (and also Parts A, B, C, E, F, L, and M ! where pertaining to electrical installations). I have a great healthy respect for electricity and, unlike some gung-ho persons, would not attempt work beyond my ability or comprehension.

Now that I've outed myself, I can't ask stupid questions any more! :-(

I'm sure that any plasterer will be quite happy to double the thickness of the render & skim (and therefore his materials costs) just to please a bone idle electrician who can't be arsed to chop his boxes in. I can see it now; he'll smile down benevolently at you, ruffle your hair like the cheeky little scamp you are then tell you to "---- right off!" He may then start pointing and laughing.

Good point. Though I'd rather plaster than chop - there's something serene about floating and waving about as opposed to gritting teeth and fighting the wall .

 

[montybaber]

Now that I've outed myself, I can't ask stupid questions any more! :-(

Why not? i do it on here every day!

 

[ian.settle1]

Quote:
Now that I've outed myself, I can't ask stupid questions any more! :-(
Why not? i do it on here every day!

Out the closet finally are we Monty

 

[montybaber]

Quote:
Now that I've outed myself, I can't ask stupid questions any more! :-(
Why not? i do it on here every day!

Out the closet finally are we Monty

lol

 

[ezzzekiel]

Hello Montybaber,

Level 2 Domestic electrical installer part p course, which confirms I'm competent to carry out and self-certify domestic electrical work.

really cant see how these courses make people competent, not even years of college does that - its hands on, day in day out that makes a good spark...

take your time, check everything as you go, stick to regs and if not sure ask (but dont ask the plasterer)

 

[Shakey]

Hello Montybaber,

I've taken and passed the VRQ Level 2 Domestic electrical installer part p course, which confirms I'm competent to carry out and self-certify domestic electrical work. It also means that any work I do will comply with Part P of the Building Regulations (and also Parts A, B, C, E, F, L, and M ! where pertaining to electrical installations). I have a great healthy respect for electricity and, unlike some gung-ho persons, would not attempt work beyond my ability or comprehension.

Now that I've outed myself, I can't ask stupid questions any more! :-(



.

passing the course does not make you:

A:- competent

or

B:- mean that any work you do will comply with relevant parts of the building regs

How can it? It means you have an acceptable understanding of what is REQUIRED to meet the laid down standards

It is no measure of your ability (or indeed willingness) to meet the those standards and rules

I am not saying you are not competent - I hope you are
I am not saying you dont (try) and comply with the building regs (i hope you do)

but we want to do, and what we CAN do, are not always the same thing - and no certificate will prove otherwise

(and i speak as tutor who has taught many, many Domestic Installer VRQ courses)

 

[EasyFox]

Oh yes dont upset the plasterer, at a job in fleet where I got talking to the plasterer during the first fix (got on fine with him), he tells me that he is waiting for a complaint from sparks off another job...story goes;

Sparks during first fix, caused an argument with the plasterers boy (ended up bullying him beyond site banter), the lad tells the gaffer who comes over to the job removes his boys off the site before fisticuffs ensue & agrees with customer to come in later in the week after the sparks have completed 1stfix & cleared off.

The plasterers go in ............... oh dear cables for downlights are now short & a few lugs are missing off backboxes + ring legs at outlets are now a tad shorter (we know how much of a pain in the arris that is).

DONT P*** THE PLASTERER OFF.


Afternoon Shakey hows things in your neck of the woods

 

[No.15]

passing the course does not make you:

A:- competent

or

B:- mean that any work you do will comply with relevant parts of the building regs

How can it? It means you have an acceptable understanding of what is REQUIRED to meet the laid down standards

It is no measure of your ability (or indeed willingness) to meet the those standards and rules

I am not saying you are not competent - I hope you are
I am not saying you dont (try) and comply with the building regs (i hope you do)

but we want to do, and what we CAN do, are not always the same thing - and no certificate will prove otherwise

(and i speak as tutor who has taught many, many Domestic Installer VRQ courses)

Shakey, I understand what you say, the course doesn't make me competent - that's up to me. I follow the rules - which is why I took the course in the first place. Here's the description of the course I took:

'The fundamental objective of this qualification is to enable candidates to develop the competences to allow them to carry out electrical installation work in dwellings. It references only those skills necessary to carry out domestic electrical installation work in accordance with standard circuit arrangements. The necessary competences to carry out the inspection and testing of newly installed electrical installation work in dwellings are also included in the qualification. The successful candidate will be considered to have achieved competence, specifically as a Domestic Electrical Installer. They will not be considered to have achieved the recognised competence required to operate as an electrician.'
​

Not gonna say the 'c' word anymore, *sulk
..
..
..
can I say I'm a crap domestic electrical installer? Then I can ask stupid questions again.

 

[tony.towa]

Hi scampy

Do not use junction boxes on a rewire. You say you have a blank canvas and it is your first big job, realistically there should be no need for junction boxes. Do not get into bad habits now they will come back to bite you in the bum later on.

 

[vectraj]

35mm back boxs throughout the house?

 

[stevie h]

Hi mate , Ring main ~ 1 x up 1 x down , run in 2.5mm t+e , depending on what is happening with the walls will dictate how much chasing you have to do , if the walls are getting dot an dabbed (plaster boarded) , i generally chase skt boxs in 10mm deep max as that's all that is required .... if the walls are not getting boarded, just a skim over existing plaster then you will need to chase skt boxs flush with original plaster ( use 25mm skt boxs ) not 35mm or 45mm
once you have fixed your skt boxs in place , run your ring main in, for the chases down the wall use 25mm oval plastic conduit ..

same goes for the lighting circuits x1 up x 1 down , just have your feeds and sw wires sticking out the ceiling through a nog-ins , with sw wires in the switch box's as above

don't forget your gas and water 10mm earths

plastic oval conduit all your cables down to were your f/board is going

Get your self some new wood bits to drill the joists 20mm + 25mm ...

Screw fix is good for gear

Why use earthed metal capping ? use plastic oval conduit and fit a duel split RCD board

Hope this helps getting you started

Ste

 

[heathelect]

hiya scampy

hiya scampy in response to your questions.
1.yes, you install all cabling & flush boxes as a first fix, i personally wouldnt use joint boxes because they should be left accessible for future inspection, use either the loop in system (3 plating) for the lighting or alternatively loop your cables behind the switches thus leaving only one cable to your light position, but be aware that with the connections behind a switch you will need at least a 25mm deep switch box.
2. with reference to depth of boxes, find out how the plasterer is finishing the walls, if he is wet plastering the walls you will need to sink in boxes so they sit approx 12mm out from the existing brickwork, if he is drylining with plaster board called (dotting & dabbing), you can usually fix 25mm deep boxes directly to the wall.
3.testing, yes you do this at the end of the 2nd fix, but keep looking visually during 1st fix for any mechanical damage that may have ocurred.


I must say be very careful with everything that you do follow the regulations and if you are unsure take proffesional advice from an experienced electrician, as you are inexperienced i would also wonder what qualifications/status you have to certify your own work.
As a self employed spark of 20yrs with 35 yrs in the trade i had to do all the courses (16th & 17th edition regs & testing/inspection courses) & join the N.I.C.E.I.C. to self certify my work.

So be very careful, be sure that you are qualified to certify your work and remember you will be solely responsible for the work you do, Oh & good luck.
dave

 

[scampy]

Big thanks to steve h and heathelec for thier answers, should have just asked how deep do you cut in and this post may have been more freindly!

In answer to all the other quieries to what makes you competant, i have a certificate to say i am. I have also passed my ELECSA assesment and can self certify.

I can imagine that to all you 5 year apprentice served sparkys us upstarts with our 5 say course seem like cowboy's. I can assure that i want to do things the best way possible and that is why i am qsking questions here for best practive and not what is the easy way.

I have a dozen jobs under my belt so far, mostly additions and alterations and a few rewires in garages, things i've done for free in mates garages for the practice.

this big job i'm going to undertake will be a nightmare for my brother-in-law who is a sparky with 20 years experiance as he'll be dragged onto site a few times to make sure i'm doing things right, my wife has told him so.

I ask the questions here and not of him because i don't want him to think me an idiot.

Thanks again for the pointers

 

[Bane]

Well, I think your stupid and crap and an idiot.

Oh and welcome to the site.

 

[No.15]

Wish I was half as c*mp*t*nt with the quick wit in dis forum

 

[Bane]

Comes with practice No.15.

You'll learn

 

[jeremy]

Best of luck scampy. you can learn from a book but you'll learn more from experience. where does the knowledge in the book come from? experience. i remember the first rewire I did. good thing those smoke dets worked! Never be scared to ask. you don't ask you don't get. sorry, rabbiting on again

 

[EasyFox]

no1,
how far do you go with the 1st fix? my understanding is you place the cables and boxes but you do not attatche to lights and sockets.

First & most important is put a socket in just below existing cu, kettle/chargers .
Start in daylight & do the lighting circuits first, test & energise on existing cu, gives you light in the evening to work late on other circuits (my other half hates me doing rewires) .
At this point decide on sso circuits (1x kitchen 1x up & 1x down) & circuit type ring/radial.
Fire in the socket circuits test & energise to existing cu.
then crack on with other circuits.
Lastly change the cu & tails.

do you go as far as setting up ganged lights and the attatching to junction boxes? He is unsure on what lights will be going in so i intend to uses junction boxes and take the switches from them, have i explained that right?

Never start a rewire unless you know what the customer wants (get it in writing).
In your case you'll end up lifting flooring twice make sure you have quoted accordingly.

No2
How deep do you cut in. i'm going to attatch the cable directly to brick work under metal earthed protection. i'll then need to cut in the boxes. i guess i'm asking, how thick do i presume the plaster will be?

CUT IN ... CUT IN in this game it's called chasing in
No need to earth the capping Infact no need to use it at all. Clipped direct is fine & case the back boxes in with 5mm protruding, you'll need to knock a chunk out of brick work to get the cables into the KO's on back boxes.

No3,
I think i know the answer to this. you do all the testing and inspection at the end of the second fix?

Not if you are gonna energise off the existing cu, before installing a 17th compliant cu.

Now for the lecture...........................................................
Rewires aren't a simple task off swapping cables, theres alot to think about & planning is a big part of the job (working in near darkness isnt an easy thing ).
This type of work isnt what you want to be doing as a fresh out of your 5 day sparks course bod, but if you have the quals & are deemed competant who are we to say no, just go steady & as if unsure (you'll get some micky taking but thats par for the course) we all had to start somewhere..........even if it was a 5 day course.
Anyway it gives the rest of us work putting right the cock ups.

Lastly I've not read all the posts so if you know sod all about sparking dont do it & sorry if I've given sod all help

 

[jibspark]

At the end of the day its hard to get experience in this sort of thing without jumping in, i say go for it and enjoy. I turned one down a year ago as i didn't have the balls, I've kicked myself since!

Just make sure you pop on here and ask advice if your unsure about anything, you might get a little pi55 taking but you will get a lot of experienced people offering good advice!

like you say you've got the basic quals to get you started, all that's lacking is experience which is what your gaining from what your doing.

Just make sure you and the house are safe by the time your done.

 

[Bane]

Good advice Jib!

*Applauds*

 

[heathelect]

hiya again
Take heed of what these lads are telling you, they know what they are talking about.
Go nice and steady with your rewire, and most of all if you are unsure, always ask.
good luck
dave

 

[scampy]

Some really helpfull advice coming through now, thanks again chaps. I have had the plans for the house for a week and i'm going in to take a look on Sunday, i'll make sure i make some good drawings and get the design signed off.

It's a 4 bed with a large en-sweet so i'm thinking of splitting the circuits as such.
ring up ring down
lights up lights down
kitchen
bathrooms
then cooker water heater showers fire alarms ect on thier own.

learnt a few more valuable things in this forum. it's chasing in and get a socket in early to make the tea.

I'm very nervous about this job but i beleive i can do it well and safe and it will be a massive learning tool. every day's a school day.

 

[ezzzekiel]

to be honest i would say the best jobs to learn on are rewires, you cant really go wrong when renewing the lot and by the time youve got a couple under your belt then domestic wise its a doddle.

take yer time follow the big red bible

 

[andy8758]

For my 5p on "competency" for being an electrical installer.......

I believe that there are 2 levels of competency:
- Competency of knowledge about compliant electrical installations, and application of that knowledge.
- Competency as a constructor on site.
I happen to believe that a good sparky needs to be competent at both levels, and having taken the EAL course (commonly called the Part P Qualification), 2382 17th wiring regs, and 2392 test/inspect of initial electrical installation - I believe that my training gave me the first competency, but not the second.

The problem with the domestic installer route as opposed to the 2330 full apprenticeship is that the former appears designed for those who have been working in various construction roles, and simply need to attain competency on the requirements for compliant electrical installations. The 2330 qualification requires a period working in the trade to qualify, which gives the full range of construction skills as well as the electrical theory and practice.

Before the various instructors tell me how their courses address the full range of skills - I wonder if they include carpentry, plastering, and masonary skills in their training? Along with metalwork, resistant materials, and a full range of health and safety issues (although some do include H & S).

So to my fellow Part P qualified people out there - we can all acquire the knowledge of electrical systems through reading and appropriate training, but you will still require the construction skills to complete the more demanding jobs like a re-wire. After all - don't think the customer will be too impressed if you cause a whole wall of plaster to crack and fall off when you start experimenting with chasing walls!

And if you are not skilled at designing the systems for the individual job (please don't work to "templates" used in other properties) then wait to gain more experience, and don't attempt re-wires based on the advice received in this forum.

Lecture over. Good luck to you all, and enjoy your work. I do.

 

[ezzzekiel]

don't think the customer will be too impressed if you cause a whole wall of plaster to crack and fall off

wouldnt that be a job for a plasterer?
dont get me wrong, i served my time as a plasterer before i retrained as a spark - but any holes, chases, damaged plaster thats left is down to the plasterer to sort out (granted i can price seperate for repair work) but generally on-site and off its not the electricians problem.......

otherwise good points

 

[wayne]

For my 5p on "competency" for being an electrical installer.......

I believe that there are 2 levels of competency:
- Competency of knowledge about compliant electrical installations, and application of that knowledge.
- Competency as a constructor on site.
I happen to believe that a good sparky needs to be competent at both levels, and having taken the EAL course (commonly called the Part P Qualification), 2382 17th wiring regs, and 2392 test/inspect of initial electrical installation - I believe that my training gave me the first competency, but not the second.

The problem with the domestic installer route as opposed to the 2330 full apprenticeship is that the former appears designed for those who have been working in various construction roles, and simply need to attain competency on the requirements for compliant electrical installations. The 2330 qualification requires a period working in the trade to qualify, which gives the full range of construction skills as well as the electrical theory and practice.

Before the various instructors tell me how their courses address the full range of skills - I wonder if they include carpentry, plastering, and masonary skills in their training? Along with metalwork, resistant materials, and a full range of health and safety issues (although some do include H & S).

So to my fellow Part P qualified people out there - we can all acquire the knowledge of electrical systems through reading and appropriate training, but you will still require the construction skills to complete the more demanding jobs like a re-wire. After all - don't think the customer will be too impressed if you cause a whole wall of plaster to crack and fall off when you start experimenting with chasing walls!

And if you are not skilled at designing the systems for the individual job (please don't work to "templates" used in other properties) then wait to gain more experience, and don't attempt re-wires based on the advice received in this forum.

Lecture over. Good luck to you all, and enjoy your work. I do.

in three words.....qualification and experience and one smiley