2391 compliance with EAWR no 14

[goose2]

If while doing your 2391 PIR test would doing an EFLI ZS at furthest point (R1+R2) on a live open accessory be an automatic fail for working on live equipment EAWR no 14?

Has anyone done this and not been failed?
Has anyone done this and been failed?

 

[iceman]

if you attempeting to do an R1 + R2 on a live supply tht will be an instant fail

if you attempeting to an earth fault loop impedence Zs at the futherest point wile the supply is live that will be ok because the supply need to bo enegized before you can undertake the test, hope this helps

 

[goose2]

thanks for your reply iceman

I'm refuring to measuring Zs on open accessories not sockets

I've just looked back in the forum to 08/03/2008

link(http://www.electriciansforums.net/electrical-courses-electrical-nvqs/694-2391-practical.html) this is well worth looking at


Shakey answers a question which, i believe, addresses my concerns

I draw from his answers the only exsposed live testing i can do is Ze and pfc at the main DB
with the main DB isolator off. i know even then i must make sure the load site of the DB has to be checked is dead before i do any tests.

 

[zupos40]

Goose as the lighting and single socket outlet are suppied from the rcd protected submain you will be able to calculate the Zs for each circuit add the measured Zdb to R1+R2 x 1.2 (1.2 to convert form 20 to 70) for each circuit then compare Zs directly with the regs.

For all the other circuits you will have to measure ZS remeber to wear you safety equipment.

With reference to the motor circuit you can only test the ELZ up to the motor isolator, from the contactor to the motor terminal measure R1+ R2 each phase then combine the two together remembering to multiply each R1 + R2 by 1.2 factor.

As long as all your equipment comlies with Gs 38 and you are wearing safety equipment you are ok to test.

Automatic failures are not performing safety checks removing cover with board or accessiories live or wearing PPE.

 

[goose2]

Thanks zupos40

so let me get this right

After I've done all my dead tests i close all open accessories ,Close main Db lid screw shut,then i can turn power back on and with the motor circuit breaker on, i can take the cover back off the motor isolator/starter and do the Zs checks live
is this not removing a cover of a live accessory or am i looking at this wrong


Automatic failures are not performing safety checks removing cover with board or accessiories live or wearing PPE.


or am i looking at this wrong

 

[zupos40]

Thanks zupos40

so let me get this right

After I've done all my dead tests i close all open accessories ,Close main Db lid screw shut,then i can turn power back on and with the motor circuit breaker on, i can take the cover back off the motor isolator/starter and do the Zs checks live
is this not removing a cover of a live accessory or am i looking at this wrong


Automatic failures are not performing safety checks removing cover with board or accessiories live or wearing PPE.


or am i looking at this wrong

When the board is live switch off the CB before removing the front of the FCU, inspect wiring then switch CB back on to do ZS test, when complete switch off to screw cover back etc.

 

[goose2]

Thanks zupos40


that clears it up for the PIR test board but in an on site situation would't I be leaving live parts exsposed while i went back and forth to the circuit breaker
and would the instructor see doing this as bad practice

 

[Spudnik]

... inspect wiring then switch CB back on to do ZS test, when complete switch off to screw cover back etc.

If you do that on your assessment, that will be an instant fail.

NEVER, leave the CU with the cover off, even if it is isolated, and you certainly NEVER energise a CU with the cover off.

Of course, i know we all do in the field, but rules is rules.

 

[zupos40]

Thanks zupos40


that clears it up for the PIR test board but in an on site situation would't I be leaving live parts exsposed while i went back and forth to the circuit breaker
and would the instructor see doing this as bad practice

No because if on site you were doing live testing you would inform person working nearby and make area safe barrier etc, labelling, let change it around do you think it is safe to push cable back into an enclosure and screw the cover down with the item live and what if it went bang.

When I do commerical/ industrial testing I alway tape the area off and post labels, domestic inform client, have pets child removed to safe area.

If you do that on your assessment, that will be an instant fail.

NEVER, leave the CU with the cover off, even if it is isolated, and you certainly NEVER energise a CU with the cover off.

Of course, i know we all do in the field, but rules is rules.

Sorry you misread my blog I was talking about accessiories not CCU, I would not rcommend leaving the cover off distribution board etc which have live part that can be touched, but as I saying I would switch off CB before removing the front plate/ accessiory at FCU or s/o or motor isolator, would this still result in automatic failure, before testing, the switch off breaker before replacing accessiories covers.

 

[goose2]

Thanks Zupos40
I appreciate the points mentioned

The issue is with regard to EAWR is an open accessory Zs test justifiable live working
weather it is live or dead when you open it up

I am assuming that for Ze and pfc at the origin,with Safe isolation of load side, it is. and not for any other location

I assume you have taken your 2391 test (which I have not)
and i appriciate you on site testing exsperiance.

When you did your 2391 PIR test did you remove the cover of the motor starter
as you described and pass your test

 

[zupos40]

Thanks Zupos40
I appreciate the points mentioned

The issue is with regard to EAWR is an open accessory Zs test justifiable live working
weather it is live or dead when you open it up

I am assuming that for Ze and pfc at the origin,with Safe isolation of load side, it is. and not for any other location

I assume you have taken your 2391 test (which I have not)
and i appriciate you on site testing exsperiance.

When you did your 2391 PIR test did you remove the cover of the motor starter
as you described and pass your test

When I did my 2391 I only did live testing at the isolater (yes I had performed Ze, Pefc and Pscc at 3 phase distrubtion board replaced all covers on dis-board), from output of contractor I did only dead testing and used the sumation method Zs motor = Ze + (R1 + R2 x1.2) etc as prevouisly stated. I also asked for barriers and labelling so I could corden off area which assessor liked, another lecturer came in and I politely stopped them entering my test aarea, passed in 1997, before Gn.3 started stating that it not safe measure Zs at motor Gn.3 page 76. I sure some will possible say I should have failed.

 

[goose2]

Zupos40


just done my 2391 PIR.Assessor says i've passed

I asked before the test if i had to do a Zs open test.
He said he expected to see me do open accessory live test with regard to EAWR 14.

So i did as you said, baring in mind that the area was classed as being closed off,
Breaker off,open accessory,breaker on,test,breaker off ,close accesory.


the rcd board i had to do with a D lock meter same as above but the meter nocked off the RCD
so i had to calculate Zs from (ze bd1+ R1 +R2 db2 feed) ie DB2 Ze +each circuitRr1 +R2


so many thanks

 

[zupos40]

Zupos40


just done my 2391 PIR.Assessor says i've passed

I asked before the test if i had to do a Zs open test.
He said he expected to see me do open accessory live test with regard to EAWR 14.

So i did as you said, baring in mind that the area was classed as being closed off,
Breaker off,open accessory,breaker on,test,breaker off ,close accesory.


the rcd board i had to do with a D lock meter same as above but the meter nocked off the RCD
so i had to calculate Zs from (ze bd1+ R1 +R2 db2 feed) ie DB2 Ze +each circuitRr1 +R2


so many thanks

That great well done, I pleased when people are successful, all the best testing in the real world.