5 Min Survey at Customer's House

[SRE]

Can someone please explain to me how you can do a survey in 5 minutes?

I've just been to a job - we're the third installer to visit. The guy was a builder, his son in law is a farmer, neither are stupid. The previous installers had looked around the house, told him which panels they installed and gave him a price.

We discovered that neither customer understood the Feed in Tariff, the Export tariff or how much of the electricity generated would be used in the house. The EPC hadn't been explained, no check done on the roof structure, electrics not checked. Siting of the inverter not discussed.

One of the customers thought that having 4kwp of solar panels would take huge chunks off his electric bill (£800/ month for a swimming pool) and if you were a customer that hadn't had 2 previous visits from installers I wouldn't necessarily be surprised. BUT to be in this situation after 2 visits is just appalling. I found myself in the awful position of having to justify why we were looking at roof, electrics, asking for the price of their electric and then spending 15 mins starting at the beginning with the whole solar process, then giving the guy with the swimming pool the bad news - he would only save £354 a year off his electricity bill - every scrap used in the pool.

I don't mind explaining to our customers - I enjoy the conversation. I seriously object to being lumped in via MCS and RECC with the other installers though :cowboy: !!! I thought these days had gone.

Rant over!

 

[saint]

And unfortunately, despite all your efforts and correct advice he may now not go ahead due to the small annual reduction in his bill. I do hope you get the job though. So much time is wasted in this industry.

 

[SRE]

I sounded like a salesman when I told him most people would snap our hand off for a 4kwp system, south facing, no shade where all the electric was being used. Mind you I have a feeling that he's borrowing the money so it's not as good a deal if he's having to borrow - time will tell.

 

[Earthstore]

Is it not still a good deal if you have to borrow, what is the ROI for year one now 10-12%?
How much can you borrow that money for 4-5%.....

It really makes economic sense to borrow for PV, the income recieved from the system pays the loan with plenty of margin.

 

[Gavin A]

Is it not still a good deal if you have to borrow, what is the ROI for year one now 10-12%?
How much can you borrow that money for 4-5%.....

It really makes economic sense to borrow for PV, the income recieved from the system pays the loan with plenty of margin.

well, it can do depending on circumstances. Got to consider that SRE is in cumbria and it rains almost constantly up there, which must impact on payback compared to sunny yorkshire..... but yeah swimming pool should make a loan viable due to the high self consumption levels.

 

[saint]

If you can afford a swimming pool and the costs (financial and environmental) to heat it, you can afford a 4 kW pv system. If not you have your priorities all wrong!

 

[SRE]

It's a small commercial swimming pool rather than a luxury private one - it's part of a farm diversification project. Problem is it's competing with the cost of biomass which will save more, quicker and then he'll have the cash for pv - that's what I've advised him to do, along with voltage optimisers for the pumps. He's got other projects he's doing as well so he's having to prioritise.

I'm pleased he's now got some decent information to make his decision with even if it means we don't get work from it. I haven't done the full quote but it probably does pay off with a low interest loan but to as quickly as biomass - he's cutting his oil bills by 40% even without the RHI.

Gavin - I'll have you know we had a whole hour of sunshine today! It was a record though lol.

 

[Silly Sausage]

And unfortunately, despite all your efforts and correct advice he may now not go ahead due to the small annual reduction in his bill. I do hope you get the job though. So much time is wasted in this industry.

To all PV guys, what proportion of your customers are actually concerned about being 'Green', as opposed to being fortunate enough to afford getting a system installed and making a profit from it?

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin - I'll have you know we had a whole hour of sunshine today! It was a record though lol.

summer's been and gone already up there has it?

 

[T0RN4D0]

This might be a bit OT, but is the customer using PV and electric heaters to heat a pool, or is that bill for the pumps or something? Wouldn't it be way (waaaaay) more effective to use a solar water heater?


About beeing gree, i think these panels are one of the worst ways to produce electricity, and in 30 years time we'll have a huge green issue again, where to dump a trillion truckloads of outdated solar panels.

 

[SRE]

We had summer in 1976, 2013 and are getting ready for it again in 2050, I'm crossing the days off already!

 

[SRE]

Archy - can't speak for anyone else but our customers are doing it for financial reasons but love the energy saving bit too. As for green - I've found 2 in 3.5 years.

Turn4Do - the pool was heated by oil is soon to be heated by biomass.

I'd suggest that pv waste is significantly less polluting than nuclear and the thought of fracking near nuclear totally freaks me out. The only bits on pv that can't be recycled is the silicon cells and the clue is in the name - silicon wafer - each wafer is a micron thick. I know which I'd rather have.

 

[Gavin A]

About beeing gree, i think these panels are one of the worst ways to produce electricity, and in 30 years time we'll have a huge green issue again, where to dump a trillion truckloads of outdated solar panels.

1 - most decent quality panels will still be operating perfectly well in 30 years time, albeit at around 15-25%% lower output than now.
2 - most are also designed to be largely recyclable.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Looking at technology around, i don't believe either of those. Even if they'll be operational, they'll be obsolete because of their low efficiency.

As for recyclable, yes, kind off. Proper recycling would probably cost about as much as making of new ones. Or you send them to china, where they are recycled at an acceptable cost. And you've probably seen how electronics are recycled in the waste villages.

 

[SRE]

Sharp & Schott panels made in the early 1960's are still producing energy now. That's pretty encouraging even if they were only generating at 40% of their original efficiency - more efficient panels will be able to go on the North facing roofs. The increased efficiency will compensate for the lower light levels. So you'll have panels still producing installed in the last 10 years and newer technology working in areas where it's previously been impossible.

All hypothetical of course!

 

[T0RN4D0]

North facing roofs in the UK, that will bring in some juice for sure. Also basements, as long as you have some tiny windows to bring in some light. :17:

 

[SRE]

You're argument was about efficiency - I simply pointed out that greater efficiency would make North facing roofs as viable as South facing with today's efficiency. Therefore no need to replace existing pv in a few year's time when efficiency may well be greater, negating the need for recycling.

How many pv installs have you done so far?

 

[SolarCity]

SRE is right. In fact, north facing roofs can even be viable now depending on a few factors - pitch of the roof, shading, energy price and energy use within the property.

 

[BruceB]

North and south facing in UK, before the rails were trimmed.

 

[Gavin A]

have you got comparative performance data for each side Bruce?

 

[BruceB]

They go into a tripower and I have not been recording performance of each side separately. It is on my list of things to do if I wind down work and take up hobby electronics! I suspect the MCS tables are reasonably accurate to compare performance.

 

[Ian-LS]

Just done a quote for a customer which will save him around £425 off his electric bill, his electric bill is around £3000 mind but its all electric heating so massively higher bills than normal. This is on a west south west roof and a east north east roof.

 

[SRE]

I'm a bit confused - is that a 4kwp system, how can he save so much? Surely he's not running the central heating in the Summer? Has he got something that uses a lot of electric in the summer? Working on 15p/kwh cost that's 2,833 kwh but the majority of that will be generated during the Summer months when there won't be any heating on. Have I missed something?

 

[T0RN4D0]

I don't know how these things work up there. Down here, they are viable because we're all paying for them. You sell all the energy you make at about three times the price you buy it back and then use it. Which means it costs 5 times as much to make then the one from the dreaded nuclear plants.

Im sure north side panels are economically feasible, especially for the guys selling and installing them.

 

[Ian-LS]

Its a 6 kWp system limited to 3.68 kW with less than 1% losses due to the differing orientations and 30 degree angle of the roof. The peaks of the two arrays will be early-mid morning and mid afternoon lending itself well to self consumption.

Its difficult to be precise on the expected savings but with annual consumption of 20,000 kWh a good chunk of the PV system will be used on site.

Usually I would expect savings to be in the £150-£200 mark with customers with average size electric bills.

 

[Ian-LS]

This is the expected performance of PV at different orientations and roof angles. Bit of education for you TORN4DO

 

[SolarCity]

I don't know how these things work up there. Down here, they are viable because we're all paying for them. You sell all the energy you make at about three times the price you buy it back and then use it. Which means it costs 5 times as much to make then the one from the dreaded nuclear plants.

Im sure north side panels are economically feasible, especially for the guys selling and installing them.

Please stick to subject.

Feel free to start another thread if you want us to correct you on your common misconceptions about solar power.

 

[SRE]

Interesting, what sort of kwh are you projecting?

We always quote lower savings, that's not to say others aren't right but I work from home and use about 30% of what I generate and I try hard to match consumption with generation. My consumption pattern just doesn't match generation. Mine is bumped up a bit with underfloor heating in the kitchen but I've yet to be able to get pv covering it's cost and a glass kiln - I'm too busy in the Summer with solar to utilise the kiln during generating hours.

I explain this to our customers - for them it's real world data, in their area and if they save more they just get a quicker payback.

 

[Ian-LS]

4,530 kWh per year so its only 755 kWh/kWp but design is based more on spreading the generation throughout the day than getting the highest kWh/kWp possible.

Its perhaps an area that needs further data for people to use. I know one of the rent of roof companies surveyed all the customers with 4 kWp systems on south facing roofs to see what percentage of the PV was being used. Think it varied between 25-50% from memory.

 

[SRE]

Yea, EST's survey found 25% was the "norm". Found it quite interesting that on a certain Facebook page a certain Rent a roof company has quite a few posts from customers about how much their fuel bills have been cut. There's nothing wrong with this (and I'm not for a minute saying it's the company's fault) but having dealt with fuel bills and debt for almost 25 years I understand how few people actually understand their bills.

When I see that someone has reduced their bills by £50 a month it's clear that the customer doesn't understand that this is because they have either over paid their electric or the meter readings have been over estimated. Looks great for electric savings but doesn't reflect the reality.

 

[Worcester]

It's a small commercial swimming pool rather than a luxury private one - it's part of a farm diversification project. Problem is it's competing with the cost of biomass which will save more, quicker and then he'll have the cash for pv - that's what I've advised him to do, along with voltage optimisers for the pumps. He's got other projects he's doing as well so he's having to prioritise.

I'm pleased he's now got some decent information to make his decision with even if it means we don't get work from it. I haven't done the full quote but it probably does pay off with a low interest loan but to as quickly as biomass - he's cutting his oil bills by 40% even without the RHI.

Gavin - I'll have you know we had a whole hour of sunshine today! It was a record though lol.

Biomass for the swimming pool is a no-brainer, the (Commercial) RHI he'll get for that will easily pay for it, on top of that he could get paid to heat the homes as well. (Glad we diversified when we did) He should / could also consider solar thermal for the pool.

 

[Worcester]

Its a 6 kWp system limited to 3.68 kW with less than 1% losses due to the differing orientations and 30 degree angle of the roof. The peaks of the two arrays will be early-mid morning and mid afternoon lending itself well to self consumption.

Its difficult to be precise on the expected savings but with annual consumption of 20,000 kWh a good chunk of the PV system will be used on site.

Usually I would expect savings to be in the £150-£200 mark with customers with average size electric bills.

Hi Ian, remember based on the new MCS and Ofgem interpretations even limited to 3.68kW he'll only get the 4-10kWp tarrif (I know it's not a big difference these days)

 

[Ian-LS]

oh yes I know that Worcester. We've been quoting on the 4-10 kW feed in tariff rate with anything over 4 kWp since mid 2012 due to OFGEM. With the small difference in feed in tariff rates it makes sense to go over 4 kWp more

 

[Gavin A]

Hi Ian, remember based on the new MCS and Ofgem interpretations even limited to 3.68kW he'll only get the 4-10kWp tarrif (I know it's not a big difference these days)

for high energy users we tend to work on it becoming economically viable above about 4.5kWp, with 4-4.5kWp being the no go zone, and most being 5kWp for south facing, or 5.5-6.5kWp for east / west, roof space allowing, all within the 16amp AC output limit.

The drop from 21p to 16p FIT for 0-4kWp systems really meant that theses systems became economic from that point onward, which was partly why we gave up on our attempts to get ofgem to see reason on the TIC issue.