80A 100mA RCD in Domestic TT installation?

[leascliffe]

Hi,

I am starting out as a domestic installer and would really like some of your advice please??

I went to preview a job today to replace some pendant light fittings. The customer said the CU was replaced in 2010 together with a new earth rod being a TT supply. The overhead lines come into the distributor's fuse, tails out to the meter and just one pair of tails from the meter into an MK insulated C/U. The C/U consists of a 80A 100mA Time delayed RCD as main switch and 10 MCB's. There does not appear to be any other C/U at the property so I was wondering why the original installer went for a time delayed 100mA RCD?

I'm concerned there is no 30mA protection and believe the 100mA time delayed RCD should be swapped for a standard 30mA. Wondered if any of you have experienced the same and agree or disagree? Thanks!

 

[Engineer54]

Not essential on a plastic CU.

I'm not quite following your logic here. Why do you think a metal CU requires an ''essential'' up front S type RCD, but a plastic CU doesn't??
The S type RCD is as far as i'm concerned, there to provide the much needed extra protection on a TT installation, rather than relying on a single RCD devices that are frankly not known for their operational reliability!!

As far as the OP situation is concerned, he should have both, either in the form of a dual 30mA RCD, or via RCBO's!! As it stands at the moment, the single S type 100mA RCD CU, doesn't comply with either the present regulations, or the regulations in force at the time of installation (2010)!!

 

[leascliffe]

I'm not quite following your logic here. Why do you think a metal CU requires an ''essential'' up front S type RCD, but a plastic CU doesn't??
The S type RCD is as far as i'm concerned, there to provide the much needed extra protection on a TT installation, rather than relying on a single RCD devices that are frankly not known for their operational reliability!!

As far as the OP situation is concerned, he should have both, either in the form of a dual 30mA RCD, or via RCBO's!! As it stands at the moment, the single S type 100mA RCD CU, doesn't comply with either the present regulations, or the regulations in force at the time of installation (2010)!!

Thanks Engineer54, my thoughts about the original installation are the same as yours, their company name is on a BIG sticker on the front of the C/U, the customer is trying to let the house and has been chasing the company for a copy of the original EIC, but the bloke hasn't replied...

 

[Engineer54]

If a cert was ever officially issued, the LABC should have a copy!!

 

[leascliffe]

If a cert was ever officially issued, the LABC should have a copy!!

The customer has a Building Regs Compliance Cert but not an EIC and has been chasing one ever since. NAPIT told her they don't keep a copy of it, so will try the LABC, cheers

 

[Jay Sparks]

..........

 

[Octopus]

The customer has a Building Regs Compliance Cert but not an EIC and has been chasing one ever since. NAPIT told her they don't keep a copy of it, so will try the LABC, cheers

More fool the client for paying the bill and not getting the certificate.

 

[Jay Sparks]

The customer has a Building Regs Compliance Cert but not an EIC and has been chasing one ever since. NAPIT told her they don't keep a copy of it, so will try the LABC, cheers

The LABC wont have a copy of the EIC either.....when you notify a job, you dont send them a copy of the EIC, you just give them the Number you assign to the EIC. Well at least thats what you do with Elecsa.

 

[Engineer54]

The LABC wont have a copy of the EIC either.....when you notify a job, you dont send them a copy of the EIC, you just give them the Number you assign to the EIC. Well at least thats what you do with Elecsa.

So the only complete official copy of the certificate, is the one issued to the customer?? That sounds totally crazy to me!!

So what happens when and if say an electrician emigrated, as it sounds to me the only actual copy of any cert, is held by the electrician/company that conducted the work and completed a certificate. So where's the checks and balances?? How does anyone check anything, when something goes belly up, as far as i can see it would be an easy task to falsify a copy of any cert issued....

 

[Jay Sparks]

So the only complete official copy of the certificate, is the one issued to the customer?? That sounds totally crazy to me!!

So what happens when and if say an electrician emigrated, as it sounds to me the only actual copy of any cert, is held by the electrician/company that conducted the work and completed a certificate. So where's the checks and balances?? How does anyone check anything, when something goes belly up, as far as i can see it would be an easy task to falsify a copy of any cert issued....

I Completely agree!!! When I enter the details of the install on the Elecsa website, they only ask for the EIC number!! So your right, the only copy(s) are held by the Electrician and customer (if one is even supplied)lol. The only time SOME certs are checked is when you have your annual assessment.....and the assessor just asks to see cert No. xxxxx!! There is no policing at all but we all ready know this whole idea is a big pile of poo!!!lol

I must state that this is the way Elecsa do it...not sure if the others do it the same way??

 

[leascliffe]

I too am registered with Elecsa, I've just phoned them for advice and also NAPIT who the original installer is registered with. They both have the same complaints procedure laid down by the Government. The customer has to give the original installer opportunity to put it right (A.N. Other contractor cannot correct the original work at this stage). If the contractor does not reply, then a complaint must be sent in writing to the certification body, who will investigate and decide the outcome, in this case it seems the contractor 'could' be struck off, meaning they would struggle to re-register with any other certification body.

The customer is emigrating at the end of this month and intending to let their house, don't think this will be possible while the complaint is ongoing and only 100mA protection in place, oh dear!...

 

[Jay Sparks]

I too am registered with Elecsa, I've just phoned them for advice and also NAPIT who the original installer is registered with. They both have the same complaints procedure laid down by the Government. The customer has to give the original installer opportunity to put it right (A.N. Other contractor cannot correct the original work at this stage). If the contractor does not reply, then a complaint must be sent in writing to the certification body, who will investigate and decide the outcome, in this case it seems the contractor 'could' be struck off, meaning they would struggle to re-register with any other certification body.

The customer is emigrating at the end of this month and intending to let their house, don't think this will be possible while the complaint is ongoing and only 100mA protection in place, oh dear!...

The problem there is, the guy prob won't even care if he can register again coz he will just get a third party to do it, or just not bother notifying!!!! Its a bloody crock of poo!!!




Registration my ---!!!lol

 

[Engineer54]

So how long to you have to allow, for the original installer to put things right?? And how long to completion, after the official written complaint has been registered. It makes you wonder, just how much the safety of an installation or to it's occupants, matters to these scam providers? They beat the safety drum hard enough when it suits them, but when it comes to safety costing THEM money, it then becomes another story altogether!!

As for the original electrician/contractor being struck off, i doubt that very much, and even if he did, would have no trouble signing up with one of the others. I doubt very much that they have any common dialogue between them...

 

[leascliffe]

So how long to you have to allow, for the original installer to put things right?? And how long to completion, after the official written complaint has been registered. It makes you wonder, just how much the safety of an installation or to it's occupants, matters to these scam providers? They beat the safety drum hard enough when it suits them, but when it comes to safety costing THEM money, it then becomes another story altogether!!

As for the original electrician/contractor being struck off, i doubt that very much, and even if he did, would have no trouble signing up with one of the others. I doubt very much that they have any common dialogue between them...

That's what the chap from NAPIT told me....

He said to allow the contractor 15 days to reply to your complaint in writing, if you do not receive a reply, then the customer issues a written complaint to the certification body and they will investigate, anyone's guess how long it could then take to get it resolved. It's probably less stressful for the customer to forget the complaints procedure and just pay another contractor to put it right, the trouble is they'll be out of pocket for 12 RCBO's (being the least disruptive replacement), what are your thoughts on cost for this? I think cheapest MK Sentry RCBO's are about £24each plus certification etc...

 

[Engineer54]

That's what the chap from NAPIT told me....

He said to allow the contractor 15 days to reply to your complaint in writing, if you do not receive a reply, then the customer issues a written complaint to the certification body and they will investigate, anyone's guess how long it could then take to get it resolved. It's probably less stressful for the customer to forget the complaints procedure and just pay another contractor to put it right, the trouble is they'll be out of pocket for 12 RCBO's (being the least disruptive replacement), what are your thoughts on cost for this? I think cheapest MK Sentry RCBO's are about £24each plus certification etc...

No idea on the cost side of things, not being UK resident for a number of years now. I'm sure others here will know and give advice on that side of things...

What was the the rods Ra value on this installation?? Is the earth rod a standard 5/8'' extendable, or one of those short thin twigs they have the cheek to call an earth rod?? A photo or two would be interesting to see!! lol!!

 

[leascliffe]

Thanks . I did check the Ra and surprise, surprise it's 130ohm and I don't think the 'new' rod is extendable either, probably not even 5/8" - I'll be going back to break the news so will try to post a pic or two