A DIYer's question about Industrial wiring

[Deleted member 102649]

First, apologies for the lengthy explanation that follows. What's more, I'm not sure that my questions fit into here, or the DIY bracket. Bump if necessary.
More important, I'm NOT doing the work myself, a professional will be. However, I'm after a bit of advice, so I'll try and set the scene.

I have a house that's supplied with 3 phase. The central heating is 3 phase, the rest of the installation, recently upgraded by the same company that will do the work, is fed and balanced over the phases.
I have an agreement with them that I provide all the materials and they do the work on a as-and-when and a fill-the-gaps basis, when things are quiet for them. It works very well for both of us.
Right, here goes.
In my Utility Room is a very nice, new Schneider Acti9 36 way 3 phase DB.
Everything goes through it, all except the heating fed from individual RCBOs and the incomers are just below it along with the Economy 7 switchgear.
In my garage/workshop, through the wall behind it, is a recently acquired lathe, soon to be followed by a milling machine.
The lathe has a 5 HP, 3 phase motor, the mill will probably be similar.
The lathe has a DOL starter (it says) and was fed with 3 phase wires plus an earth - before the seller chopped them off! No neutral shown in the instruction book diagram, nor evident on the machine's connection isolator. The motor is run up and stays running, spindle brought into life by a clutch.
Questions:
1. Taking into account the Mill might well require 3 phase and neutral, (the one I'm negotiating for has a 3 phase main motor and single phase feed/coolant motors) what is the best means of running the power from my DB to the garage (about 11 metres max)?
2. Would I put RCBO protection in a DB in the garage, or on the main board?
I can supply photos of the existing DB, if needed.
If you wonder why I don't just leave them to it, like I said, I supply, they (electricians) arrive, do job, go. If I get them to come and look/specify, that means more visits, more cost. I'm a pensioner!
That said, they will surely tell me if I've got it wrong. I know the boss. I went to school with him - and I don't know why he's still working, other than he just can't quit, bless him.
Will

 

[MDJ]

I am amazed to be honest you are asking us here, you have sparks lined up (apparently) and your asking us questions they can answer for you as your supplying the materials, I think-------------and I may be wrong, you are doing the work and your here for free advice, heres mine= get a spark in.

 

[Strima]

Again I would be asking your spark to design the installation as they’ll be installing and testing it.

 

[Wilko]

The designer will specify what's needed - I wouldn't try to guess what's needed from afar. Many Electricians will do a free quote.

 

[davesparks]

For a workshop I’d say steel conduit is the most sensible wiring system.

 

[paleosparky13]

You need to advise the Distribution Network about motors you're gonna be using in your installation... (2 x > 3.5kw) motors could cause imbalances across phases especially on start up. A good spark will be able to handle the correspondance between you (laymen) and them.

 

[ipf]

You need to advise the Distribution Network about motors you're gonna be using in your installation... (2 x > 3.5kw) motors could cause imbalances across phases especially on start up. A good spark will be able to handle the correspondance between you (laymen) and them.

You've got me there. Explanation please.

 

[MDJ]

You've got me there. Explanation please.

and everyone else looking at this thread.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would run two armoured cables 3 core for the lathe and 4/5 core for the mill, to two rotary isolators.
From the rotary isolators, I would run some 4 core HO7 cable to the lathe and some 5 core HO7 cable to the mill.
Sizing of the cable and the breakers would depend on the load each machine would be expected to draw.

 

[paleosparky13]

Apologies conflating a problem I had with phases being unbalanced at generator/transformer.. probably not a phase issue although if the domestic premesis is on a 3 phase wye distribution system it could create imbalances in that network probably not related to this issue. Being a domestic/mixed use premises using motors on start up increase demand on network loads. By many orders. They will need to know and make sure they can cope. (Sorry for the confusion. I went to the gym for the first time a million years today and I'm only single phase this evening.)

 

[Deleted member 102649]

I had expected to get a negative response along the way, maybe more than one - but I didn't expect it to be the very first one I received. Neither did I expect it to pretty much accuse me of lying, or assume I was doing the job myself.
I will be getting the professionals in but having lost well over £1,000 rectifying the mess left by a previous professional, I'm trying to recoup some of it and save money sourcing materials and prepping the job. If I wait until my Sparks has a free afternoon, always short notice, I'm up against it and end up having to go to the likes of City Electrical and pay through the nose for materials.
What's the use of a forum if you daren't ask a question?
A bit sad really but in the months and months I've read posts on here, it does seem to be a common theme in the responses quite a lot of folk get to questions on this site. It's from a small percentage of the people who use it but I have NEVER seen a forum as bad as this.
From a layman's point of view it seems a surprisingly high percentage of Sparks have a deep seated negativity, or a desperate need to down their fellow man, especially if they're not a professional - and I know I'm not the only one disappointed by the attitude of a minority.
In addition, I'm not bl**dy stupid enough to poke my fingers in a 415 volt board to DIY it, so please don't assume I am and treat me like an idiot. Not all non-professionals are incompetents - in any walk of life. Some of us actually have actively acquired enough knowledge and have enough sense to be able to avoid danger or injury quite effectively.

That apart, my thanks to those who have made the effort to give a bit of positive information. It's appreciated. I begin to get an idea of what's likely to be involved, ie, more Sparks time, more money. Hey, ho. I will get my lathe up and running one day.
Will

 

[Pete999]

and everyone else looking at this thread.

And Me

 

[Octopus]

If I wait until my Sparks has a free afternoon, always short notice, I'm up against it and end up having to go to the likes of City Electrical and pay through the nose for materials.

Hum .............. this is probably where your own approach is costing you. Why are you faffing around on the day going to get parts ? That doesn't make sense either.

This maybe not what you want to hear!

Get quotes, pick the one that suits you best, probably allow the spark to get all the kit - then agree a date and then it will be done.

You are asking for trouble "waiting" until the last minute, as and when a spark is free ....

 

[Pete999]

Hum .............. this is probably where your own approach is costing you. Why are you faffing around on the day going to get parts ? That doesn't make sense either.

This maybe not what you want to hear!

Get quotes, pick the one that suits you best, probably allow the spark to get all the kit - then agree a date and then it will be done.

You are asking for trouble "waiting" until the last minute, as and when a spark is free ....

I agree with the above, I hope I'm wrong but it sounds as though the work is being done by your goodself, and waiting intimates to me that the waiting, occurs when you find yourself in trouble and need to find out what to do next.
Providing the materials and equipment yourself, is if I am being honest is a false economy, you sound by your post that you have some theoretical knowledge, Do yourself a favour get a spark in to cast and do the work, leave it to the pros.

 

[Deleted member 102649]

Hum .............. this is probably where your own approach is costing you. Why are you faffing around on the day going to get parts ? That doesn't make sense either.

This maybe not what you want to hear!

Get quotes, pick the one that suits you best, probably allow the spark to get all the kit - then agree a date and then it will be done.

You are asking for trouble "waiting" until the last minute, as and when a spark is free ....

I quite take your point, Murdoch and yes, there's always that danger.
My reasoning for the approach I've used is that I now have a Sparks I can trust and if I do it right he doesn't have to run around sourcing bits and I get a good job done at a good price.
Like I said, I'm retired, I have the time and if an electrics job gets done this week, or next month, generally it doesn't matter. I have plenty to do renovating and building the rest of the house.
Without any shadow of doubt, I've found that shopping around - and having the time to do it - saves a LOT on materials. The Sparks can't afford to spend half an hour on the internet looking for the best deal but I can. He has to go to either the nearest supplier, or his regular supplier and accept what they offer. An instance of this was the sourcing of the RCBOs for the DB. I got most of them, all new, ranging in price from £18 to £24. The ones I didn't have, or that weren't in stock from my usual supplier, had to come from a local supplier (the exact same one the Sparks uses) at £45+ each. He ordered them, I collected them - and it was painful. From experience I've found that once a supplier has your sole attention, the prices tend to drift upwards. It certainly applies to Builder's Merchants as well.

Pete999: Your hopes are fulfilled and I'm afraid you are mistaken - and I'm not in trouble. Yes, I'm pretty confident I could do it safely and properly and I have in the past. I built dozens of phase converters for individual motors and connected up lots of machines but things have changed, especially the rules and the consequences of it going wrong.
I'm most certainly not doing the work this time, unless you call aiming to make a few holes in walls, screwing on a box, or two or running a length of conduit 'doing the work your good self'. Maybe it was the way I wrote it but the whole point is I'm not waiting to the last minute to source bits. I'm trying to get ahead of the drag curve.
Unfortunately I seem to be a lone voice trying a slightly different approach. I'm spending more time reading and answering reasons why I should not take the approach, rather than reading about what I should be looking for.
Will

 

[MDJ]

Unfortunately I seem to be a lone voice trying a slightly different approach.

That should ring alarm bells for you

 

[Octopus]

In my experience there is nothing worse than a customer who wants to get involved and supply of bits and pieces.

You are exactly the type of client I avoid unless i have full control of all the parts and installation......

 

[Octopus]

In my experience there is nothing worse than a customer who wants to get involved and supply of bits and pieces.

You are exactly the type of client I avoid unless i have full control of all the parts and installation......

 

[Deleted member 102649]

.... and that works both ways, Murdoch. You conduct your business how you want. For my part I would never employ an electrician who maintains that I know nothing, don't know what I want and should not have any input into how the job is done.
Regardless of the foregoing I didn't post on here looking for an electrician, I came looking for a little advice and help. It's a forum, not an employment agency. In the midst of all this, it does seem to have been missed that me and my Sparks actually have a good working relationship.
After wading through the unhelpful stuff, I've picked out what I need and as far as I can tell, none come from you. I can get your sort of help anywhere.
I've already stated that I can see that I need to get him involved before I go any further, so I don't really see the necessity in labouring the point and telling me what a nightmare customer I am (or in making the post twice).
As for future questions on the forum, don't worry, I very much doubt if there will be any. It just isn't worth it. I also doubt if you wonder why but on the off chance you do, I refer you back to my second post. Eventually a lot more people will get fed up and leave the remainder to mutual slagging-off sessions. I just feel sorry for the ones who actually do need proper help and advice.
Good Luck
Will

 

[Pete999]

I had expected to get a negative response along the way, maybe more than one - but I didn't expect it to be the very first one I received. Neither did I expect it to pretty much accuse me of lying, or assume I was doing the job myself.
I will be getting the professionals in but having lost well over £1,000 rectifying the mess left by a previous professional, I'm trying to recoup some of it and save money sourcing materials and prepping the job. If I wait until my Sparks has a free afternoon, always short notice, I'm up against it and end up having to go to the likes of City Electrical and pay through the nose for materials.
What's the use of a forum if you daren't ask a question?
A bit sad really but in the months and months I've read posts on here, it does seem to be a common theme in the responses quite a lot of folk get to questions on this site. It's from a small percentage of the people who use it but I have NEVER seen a forum as bad as this.
From a layman's point of view it seems a surprisingly high percentage of Sparks have a deep seated negativity, or a desperate need to down their fellow man, especially if they're not a professional - and I know I'm not the only one disappointed by the attitude of a minority.
In addition, I'm not bl**dy stupid enough to poke my fingers in a 415 volt board to DIY it, so please don't assume I am and treat me like an idiot. Not all non-professionals are incompetents - in any walk of life. Some of us actually have actively acquired enough knowledge and have enough sense to be able to avoid danger or injury quite effectively.

That apart, my thanks to those who have made the effort to give a bit of positive information. It's appreciated. I begin to get an idea of what's likely to be involved, ie, more Sparks time, more money. Hey, ho. I will get my lathe up and running one day.
Will

Oh Dear Me,

 

[Pete999]

I quite take your point, Murdoch and yes, there's always that danger.
My reasoning for the approach I've used is that I now have a Sparks I can trust and if I do it right he doesn't have to run around sourcing bits and I get a good job done at a good price.
Like I said, I'm retired, I have the time and if an electrics job gets done this week, or next month, generally it doesn't matter. I have plenty to do renovating and building the rest of the house.
Without any shadow of doubt, I've found that shopping around - and having the time to do it - saves a LOT on materials. The Sparks can't afford to spend half an hour on the internet looking for the best deal but I can. He has to go to either the nearest supplier, or his regular supplier and accept what they offer. An instance of this was the sourcing of the RCBOs for the DB. I got most of them, all new, ranging in price from £18 to £24. The ones I didn't have, or that weren't in stock from my usual supplier, had to come from a local supplier (the exact same one the Sparks uses) at £45+ each. He ordered them, I collected them - and it was painful. From experience I've found that once a supplier has your sole attention, the prices tend to drift upwards. It certainly applies to Builder's Merchants as well.

Pete999: Your hopes are fulfilled and I'm afraid you are mistaken - and I'm not in trouble. Yes, I'm pretty confident I could do it safely and properly and I have in the past. I built dozens of phase converters for individual motors and connected up lots of machines but things have changed, especially the rules and the consequences of it going wrong.
I'm most certainly not doing the work this time, unless you call aiming to make a few holes in walls, screwing on a box, or two or running a length of conduit 'doing the work your good self'. Maybe it was the way I wrote it but the whole point is I'm not waiting to the last minute to source bits. I'm trying to get ahead of the drag curve.
Unfortunately I seem to be a lone voice trying a slightly different approach. I'm spending more time reading and answering reasons why I should not take the approach, rather than reading about what I should be looking for.
Will

Bit of an ego problem there Will

 

[Octopus]

.... and that works both ways, Murdoch. You conduct your business how you want. For my part I would never employ an electrician who maintains that I know nothing, don't know what I want and should not have any input into how the job is done.

Please demonstrate where I stated that...............

 

[Toneyz]

I see where you are coming from and if it suits both parties whereas you can wait when the electrician is available and it keeps him in work during a lull period.I would have thought that your electrician could have got a good deal from the usual wholesaler he uses?As for your original question, it should be your electrician's design having seen the job but normally it would be SWA buried/in a duct at an adequate depth.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Buried duct through a wall, nice.
How deep would be a suitable depth?

 

[Toneyz]

Buried duct through a wall, nice.
How deep would be a suitable depth?

Not seen the job no photo's just guessing as for the depth of burial usually about 600mm min depending what is going over the top of it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think I would just drill through the wall.

 

[Toneyz]

I think I would just drill through the wall.

Yes you quite right just read the first post (so used to questions regarding detached garaged/workshops & sheds on here) anyway not my design.

 

[Deleted member 102649]

Bit of an ego problem there Will

Ah Pete. And there was I thinking you were being so much more gentle with me than your usual approach.
I honestly didn't think it was my ego that was a problem but if you say so..........
I'd would take the criticism that I have a habit of reacting badly to pomposity, rudeness, dismissiveness........ the list goes on - but all I wanted was a bit of sage advice, other than get a Sparks and latterly someone to believe that I really was not going to do it myself. If the necessity of digging up floors came into it (buried trunking), I'd like to know beforehand. It would probably change my whole approach.
Will

 

[Deleted member 102649]

Please demonstrate where I stated that...............

Actually, I don't believe I said you stated that. From your post I took it that you would try not to have me as a client (customer, really, since I'd be paying the bill) because:
"In my experience there is nothing worse than a customer who wants to get involved and supply of (sic) bits and pieces. You are exactly the type of client I avoid unless i have full control of all the parts and installation......"
I don't think it's that unreasonable to infer from your statement that a customer has been assumed to have no knowledge worth consideration if their input is to be dismissed and absolute control exercised by the contractor.
If I got that wrong, well I'll try to feel sorry - but like I said, it's an inference, or probably more accurately, an interpretation, as was yours regarding what I said.
None of this cr*p gets me, or anyone else, anywhere. At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, I came for help and advice other than 'get a Sparks'. That's like listening to a parent who's only answer to a child's "Why?" is "Because I said so!" The regular thinly veiled accusation that I'm going to 'DIY it' don't help much either.
There's some good stuff to be had but it's soul destroying wading through the rest to find the bits you need on what I (foolishly?) thought was a help and advice forum.
Will

 

[Deleted member 102649]

I think I would just drill through the wall.

............ and I think I very much prefer that option and is what I was hoping would be suggested. I only just laid the floor...........
Will

 

[The Ghost]

Hi Willum, just thought I would reach out and say hello. Having observed the interactions it is a shame you will go away with the feelings you expressed. It is not the purpose of the forum to make people feel unwelcome. I can assure I have had my moments with members but I have a very thick skin and can hold my corner ok. I appreciate your viewpoint and would ask you to consider not tarring the whole forum black. There is some good discussions on here. Someone opened a thread on this topic. It is a tricky situation to be in at the one time wanting to help and the same time being cautious about helping as one can't easily assay the skill/knowledge of the person and the dangers in advising. What you have described is very difficult to opine on at a distance involving delta and possible star/delta motors with the required DOL switching and power requirements. It is quite a job to work out and install those items properly and someone would have to be onsite and physically eyeballing the situation. Hence the paucity of advice. But all in all as I say there are friendly times on here and try not to be discouraged by a few perceived (justifiable!) slights it is worth persevering.

 

[Deleted member 102649]

Hi Willum, just thought I would reach out and say hello. Having observed the interactions it is a shame you will go away with the feelings you expressed. It is not the purpose of the forum to make people feel unwelcome. I can assure I have had my moments with members but I have a very thick skin and can hold my corner ok. I appreciate your viewpoint and would ask you to consider not tarring the whole forum black. There is some good discussions on here. Someone opened a thread on this topic. It is a tricky situation to be in at the one time wanting to help and the same time being cautious about helping as one can't easily assay the skill/knowledge of the person and the dangers in advising. What you have described is very difficult to opine on at a distance involving delta and possible star/delta motors with the required DOL switching and power requirements. It is quite a job to work out and install those items properly and someone would have to be onsite and physically eyeballing the situation. Hence the paucity of advice. But all in all as I say there are friendly times on here and try not to be discouraged by a few perceived (justifiable!) slights it is worth persevering.

Hi Vortigern.
Thanks for that. A voice of reason - and I fully appreciate what you say.
Sadly, you shouldn't have had to write it.
I can easily understand how it's difficult/impossible to work out someone's level of knowledge from afar. There's one thing I do know for sure, though. Having been an instructor for many years, the fastest way to alienate a student/pupil is to denigrate them and attack or insult their level of knowledge and understanding. Once you destroy that wish to learn, you have lost the game, probably forever.
I came on here to try and learn something. I've learnt something - but it's certainly not just been confined to the practicalities of what I want to do with my lathe electrics.
Amongst all the unpleasant bits, I've seen from the helpful posts that it is more complex than I thought. I've said as much. I thought I'd initially presented as much information as possible in order to get an answer that didn't mean dozens of questions having to be asked. It appears it was instantly construed as 'I'm going to DIY it" Other than holes in walls, fastening things up, etc, I've never intended to do it all myself, despite the accusations - veiled, or otherwise.
It would be nice if all the unpleasant bits, my reactions included, could be removed from this thread. It might then be of some use.
I don't and never will understood the approach that says if you think a question or plan is daft, ill informed, or ill conceived, then the best response is to attack and/or insult the originator. I certainly don't need mollycoddling, not after the profession I was in, but it's just so unnecessary.
Will

 

[Deleted member 102649]

I see where you are coming from and if it suits both parties whereas you can wait when the electrician is available and it keeps him in work during a lull period.I would have thought that your electrician could have got a good deal from the usual wholesaler he uses?As for your original question, it should be your electrician's design having seen the job but normally it would be SWA buried/in a duct at an adequate depth.

Ah! Sorry Anthony. In the midst of all this, I've missed this bit. I'm glad someone agrees with at least one bit of my plan.
Will

 

[gnuuser]

I am not a UK spark but I will tell you. These guys are speaking out for your safety.
If you are purchasing materials get the parts recommended by your spark.
He will know more of what's required for a safe and legal job.
The same goes for prepping.
Improperly prepared jobs involve more labor to correct and a lot more time.
Most of the time the rough responses they give are from having to fix up messes someone else made.

 

[Pete999]

And Me

Oh go on then, me too

 

[DPG]

Is this one still going?

 

[Spoon]

Is this one still going?

You can never have enough joy....

 

[DPG]

Wonder if he ever sorted this one?