A hypothetical question.

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Hello Chaps,

Here's a poser for you.

If I were to install new fire rated 12V downlighters for a client but kept the old transformers, would it be my responsibility to re-terminate the existing feed to the transformers if the sleeving did not enter the accessory ?

Or would I only take responsibility for the new work ie. the terminations from the transformer to the new light fitting.

Bear in mind that in this situation bare insulation is visible only, and not bare copper.

Any opinions wold be greatly appreciated.

Al

 

[alvina69]

Just for my own piece of mind, I'd re-terminate the supply to the transformer, it's a pain in the --- making good someone else's work but at least you can take pride in a job well done.

 

[oldtimer]

Yep I agree if the transformer is one that has 2 leads from it and the mains is connected via a connector block with (if you are lucky) and bit o tape round it then I always advise a chock box with the rider that there is a warranty on the lights but not on the trannies

 

[scanner]

Just for my own piece of mind, I'd re-terminate the supply to the transformer, it's a pain in the --- making good someone else's work but at least you can take pride in a job well done.

I agree that in an ideal world I'd do the same simply for a job well done. But considering there may be 25 or more downlighters, and the transformers may be loop in... that would make... what, 100 new connections (I think ?).

I'd prefer to avoid that if not absolutely necessary, especially if that time isn't built into the budget. Remember the client is keeping the old transformers to save on costs after all : )

 

[scanner]

Yep I agree if the transformer is one that has 2 leads from it and the mains is connected via a connector block with (if you are lucky) and bit o tape round it then I always advise a chock box with the rider that there is a warranty on the lights but not on the trannies

Thanks for your reply.

Am I interpreting you correctly by saying there's no regulation requiring the new connections ? and that any re-termination can be made at your discretion as long as it's all documented in the certification ?

In this case I'm refering to loop in transformers where 2 pairs of 1.5 T+E (with short sleeving) enter the transformer, and a pair of unsleeved 1.5 cables come out.. going into the new light fitting.

Ta,

Al

 

[scanner]

Dear Moderators,

Could you possibly rename this thread as "responsible for re-terminating old equipment ?" - or something.
I'd really appreciate an answer on this question, but not getting much interest with such a nebulous title !

Ta,

Al

 

[MarkieSparkie]

If you are replacing like for like as a maintenance task in a domestic area not subject to Part P notification, certification would not be required and there is probably only a professional moral duty to re-make the LV terminations. Personally I would be issuing MEIWC to document I&T and compliance with BS7671 irrespective, therefore the following comment would apply, However, if the work is to be notified/ certified then you are responsible for the whole final circuit (LV and ELV) and therefore all of that final circuit must comply with BS7671:2011 Amt 1.

 

[telectrix]

you could over wrap the exposed cores with self amalgamating tape. not the ideal solution, but cost effective.

 

[scanner]

Thank you for your replies everybody....

Now the for full disclosure.

This question wasn't so hypothetical after all : )

I carried out a C.U change and used the job as a site visit for my ELECSA appraisal.

The complete job was a consumer unit change and down lighter replacement, both of these appeared on the installation certificate.

The ELECSA examiner marked the failure to re-terminate the old connections as a non compliance to reg. 134.1.1 and 522.6.1

He also commented on the single cores on the 12V side of the transformer not being mechanically protected (?) which confused the hell out of me.

I rung the ELECSA help line for a second opinion and they said I had to re-terminate. And it was my responsibility to make sure the circuit is safe... (without defining what 'safe' is. I understood that only a type 1 deviation that required immediate action)

I then spoke to the NICEIC help line for their opinion and they said there is no obligation for me to re-terminate the old transformers.

Is this just two different interpretations , or am I missing something ?

Interesting....

 

[mogga]

for a kik off I knew it wasnt a hypothetical question secondly if your fitting ne transformers good practice would dictate chock box the connections as for the single cores to the lamps not being mechanicaly protected Id answer with that is the way manufacturer supplies them so surley they have passed BS code then they are ok to fit so long as manufacturers instructions are followed

 

[scanner]

for a kik off I knew it wasnt a hypothetical question secondly if your fitting ne transformers good practice would dictate chock box the connections as for the single cores to the lamps not being mechanicaly protected Id answer with that is the way manufacturer supplies them so surley they have passed BS code then they are ok to fit so long as manufacturers instructions are followed

Am I really that transparent ? : )

As for the single cores... I agree with you, hence my confusion.

Also, if the transformers were new I'd chock block like you say.

However, the transformers are old and kept at the clients request as they are still working.

This is the core of the problem... am I responsible for reterminating the old transformers if the sleeve does not enter the transformer ?

ELECSA says yes.

NICEIC says no.

Al

 

[D80]

So have ELECSA turned down your application and looking at a site revisit or what have they said to do now in order to get enrolled?

 

[scanner]

Hi D80,

I'm already an ELECSA member, this is my second year.

They want me to take before and after photos of the work and send it to them to prove it's been remedied to their satisfaction.

I'm going to do it because I've already paid my £500... But I'll switch to NICEIC if this is something only ELECSA expects to be built in to each job.

 

[telectrix]

you mustn't have supplied enough jammy dodgers.

 

[scanner]

Ha ! If only.... 3 types of biscuits and a POT of tea...
The lady whos house we visited was amazing.
Now I've got to go back it's all rather embarrassing.