A little advice.

[berko]

Through my many Google searchs relating to electrics over the years, I keep finding myself here... So this time, I'm going to just make a thread and ask you guys directly instead

1. I have made a few changes to the wiring in my house one such as the added sockets in the attic are I belive, not notifiable, however the added sockets in the kitchen the added shower circit and the sockets/light in the shed are, I understand that. I of course did not notify before hand so could I just get a spark in to certify now and everything be okay? I belive that everything I have done is up to regs so it would just need a profesinal eye and a test.

2. I have been wondering why, if I am standing on a completely non conductive ceramic floor, not touching anything else, i will get electrocuted when touching a live wire... where is the electric being conducted to?

3. To become a domestic spark, what tests do I have to sit? I think this would be useful for me in the future.

Many thanks,

Berko

 

[telectrix]

Through my many Google searchs relating to electrics over the years, I keep finding myself here... So this time, I'm going to just make a thread and ask you guys directly instead

1. I have made a few changes to the wiring in my house one such as the added sockets in the attic are I belive, not notifiable, however the added sockets in the kitchen the added shower circit and the sockets/light in the shed are, I understand that. I of course did not notify before hand so could I just get a spark in to certify now and everything be okay? I belive that everything I have done is up to regs so it would just need a profesinal eye and a test.you could get a PIR done on the whole house installation.

2. I have been wondering why, if I am standing on a completely non conductive ceramic floor, not touching anything else, i will get electrocuted when touching a live wire... where is the electric being conducted to? i would not trust a ceramic floor to insulate me by getting hold of a live part.

3. To become a domestic spark, what tests do I have to sit? I think this would be useful for me in the future.

Many thanks, 2330. nvq, 2382, 2391, and any others you can think of. that's all i can think of at the moment

Berko

and 2377 for PAT testing.

 

[Superspark23]

1) The best you will get is an PIR NO electrician in their right mind will issue you an electrical installation certificate for work someone else have done, mainly because with out ripping everything apart lifting floorboards ect.. there's no telling how and what youve done things.

2) never touch live cables

3) I'd recommemed doing 2357, 2392, then 2391, 17th update you can proberly do these in the evening, dont bother with part p course

 

[Big n Daft]

Why Oh why

 

[supasparxs]

Hi Berko,
these are interesting questions,
here goes
1) Personally, I may carryout a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report) on your work, and even if I was totally happy with it, I would give you a PIR. I would not certify that work under "Part P" as I did not carryout the works and I would be unsuure of the way the works had been carried out.
2)If you were standing on a non-conductive surface and holding onto a live wire, you would not get an electric shock. You may have seen in the pas a "Cable Jointer" working live sitting on a scaffold board jointing a cable. The reason the jointer is sitting on the plank isn't to save his knees from cramps, it's to insulate him from the ground.
3)As I understand it the City and Guilds are about to change. but as the latest update to the BS7671 (IEE 17th edition regs) state that anyone who wishes to be able to sign off work under part P must be at least NVQ level 3

I'm sure someone else will be able to clarify things better then I have in some of these points.

personally I think that people who get the sparks ticket in a few months is a hazard to themselves and others.
I spent years day release at college and on site being supervised and when I came out of my time I still made mistakes.
If someone does a few months course and then set loose on the public it's an accident waiting to happen

good luck

Richard

 

[berko]

1) The best you will get is an PIR NO electrician in their right mind will issue you an electrical installation certificate for work someone else have done, mainly because with out ripping everything apart lifting floorboards ect.. there's no telling how and what youve done things.

2) never touch live cables

3) I'd recommemed doing 2357, 2392, then 2391, 17th update you can proberly do these in the evening, dont bother with part p course

I have just come of a building job where the guy in charge did all the electrics, it was a full house renovation, and a full rewire and CU, he has no qualifications what so ever, did not know the difference between an MCB and an RCD, thought that sockets were earthed by the back box (hence why some are only earthed by the screws holding them). And yet, when a fully qualified time served spark came in to test, it passed with flying coulers, no probs. I've seen the certificate. Yet even I know some of it was a bit dodgy.

The live wire thing was only hypothetical, I know not to touch live wires, been electrocuted once before, and it will never happen again.

Thanks supasparxs, I know what you're saying about the certification, it is dangourous.

I have not seen these cable jointers you're talking about, but I have seen people get electrocuted before while standing on wooden floors...

 

[berko]

Why Oh why

What do you mean, why?

 

[Hawk81]

I think you mean you have had an electric shock before. If you were electrocuted you would be dead!

 

[berko]

I think you mean you have had an electric shock before. If you were electrocuted you would be dead!

Errrrm, good point. But I think you still know what I mean

And while I'm here, I may as well ask another question that I have been pondering insted of creating another thread for a one post answer.

If the CU has an 100amp MCB, then there is the 100 amp DNO fuse, what protection comes after that, surly not a CB that is rated for 100 amp per house it supplies, that would be stupidly high and would never trip.

(I should change the title to "Alot of advice"

 

[Rockingit]

If the CU has an 100amp MCB, then there is the 100 amp DNO fuse, what protection comes after that

Fairy dust is what comes before: few know and even less share, it's safer that way!!

(In a typical housing estate, there's one big cable [well, three for the pedants] and it just spurs or loops in and out up the road back to the transformer - various things the DNO use at that point).

 

[berko]

Hmmm, fairy dust you say? I know I'm not the electision here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but dare I say it is NOT fairy dust? O.O

Oh and another question just ocuried (Sorry, but I have always been interested in electrics since being a kid, and have never met an electrision other than on a job. And they rarely have time to answer my daft questions) But... Before my house, is there a 3 phase feed and each house gets taken of each phase alterativly, or is it one big single phase cable that goes down the street? Be cause some houses do have 3 phase.

 

[telectrix]

you need to trace the cables back to the sub station. if there are 3 men pedalling on what appear to be excercise bikes, then it's 3 phase. if there's only 1 man, then it's single phase.

 

[berko]

you need to trace the cables back to the sub station. if there are 3 men pedalling on what appear to be excercise bikes, then it's 3 phase. if there's only 1 man, then it's single phase.

Just because you don't know, does not mean you have to take the **** >_>

 

[supasparxs]

Errrrm, good point. But I think you still know what I mean

And while I'm here, I may as well ask another question that I have been pondering insted of creating another thread for a one post answer.

If the CU has an 100amp MCB, then there is the 100 amp DNO fuse, what protection comes after that, surly not a CB that is rated for 100 amp per house it supplies, that would be stupidly high and would never trip.

(I should change the title to "Alot of advice"

erm I think you find that it's a 100amp main switch not a 100amp MCB
there is no over current protection from a main switch

 

[supasparxs]

Hmmm, fairy dust you say? I know I'm not the electision here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but dare I say it is NOT fairy dust? O.O

Oh and another question just ocuried (Sorry, but I have always been interested in electrics since being a kid, and have never met an electrision other than on a job. And they rarely have time to answer my daft questions) But... Before my house, is there a 3 phase feed and each house gets taken of each phase alterativly, or is it one big single phase cable that goes down the street? Be cause some houses do have 3 phase.

yes in the road there will be a 3 phase cable.

(and in Chesire they have little hampsters in wheels running to make there electrickery)

 

[AIM]

Would it not be more pedantic to note 4 big cables?

TP&N

I'll get me coat.

 

[supasparxs]

yeah it would be,

but berko isn't a spartks

 

[TIGGERTOM13]

I would only issue a report for the work not a cert, so it would not be registered with building control, even then I am dubious cause I have seen DIY work before and it can be more hassle than it's worth. I have come across incomplete ring circuits because the cables have been stripped back to short they cannot be terminated in to the socket properly and pop out when fixed back.

Don't touch live cables because the current will flow through any path in can to earth, mcb's protect cables from overload and short circuit they are not to stop people getting electrocuted. The cpd will see you a a load and not a fault dependant on resistance.

As regards to the 100 Amp mcb are you sure it is a mcb, generally domestic boards mcb's 45 to 50 amp are the highest. It could be a RCD rated at 100 Amp but that wont detect overload.


To become a spark a quick course is not the answer, it takes experience as well as qualifications to become a good one, domestic or commercial.

 

[telectrix]

yes in the road there will be a 3 phase cable.

(and in Chesire they have little hampsters in wheels running to make there electrickery)

nah, we have great big hamsters. little hamster is on top gear.

 

[berko]

I would only issue a report for the work not a cert, so it would not be registered with building control, even then I am dubious cause I have seen DIY work before and it can be more hassle than it's worth. I have come across incomplete ring circuits because the cables have been stripped back to short they cannot be terminated in to the socket properly and pop out when fixed back.

Don't touch live cables because the current will flow through any path in can to earth, mcb's protect cables from overload and short circuit they are not to stop people getting electrocuted. The cpd will see you a a load and not a fault dependant on resistance.

As regards to the 100 Amp mcb are you sure it is a mcb, generally domestic boards mcb's 45 to 50 amp are the highest. It could be a RCD rated at 100 Amp but that wont detect overload.


To become a spark a quick course is not the answer, it takes experience as well as qualifications to become a good one, domestic or commercial.

Thanks for the advice, all I can say is that a fully qualified spark who has been in the job many years and has worked on countless jobs has already seen every socket, JB, and the CU, and he said it was "perfect". But did not test as I was not finished, but was happy to come back. (was a friend of my dads). This was a few months ago now, and I have never gotten him nor anybody else back hence the question I posed, and of course no matter who it was, they'd need paying, which is not so easy at the moment.

I know not to touch live wires I have done A-Level physics which covered the more advanced side of things, such as 3 pahse, formulas and circuit diagrams ect. It was just a hypothetical question than I have not been able to answer by myself.

I meant to say a 100amp DP not MCB, silly mistake. It's just an iso switch after all.

And you're right, it takes alot of time and effort to become fully qualified, a quick overnight course is not worth the paper it's written on. I was going to do a JTL course, did the test and everything, but there were no available electrisions in my local area to do the apprenticeship with

 

[TIGGERTOM13]

Good luck with training, I dont think finding jobs is any easier.

 

[hercule]

Probably just repeating what has already been said, but under part p, only the installer themselves can issue the certs (or the installing company). Anyone who is going to sign of someone elses work is going to want paying a fair bit for the risk of doing it - probably not cost much more for them to do the work in the first place.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Probably just repeating what has already been said, but under part p, only the installer themselves can issue the certs (or the installing company). Anyone who is going to sign of someone elses work is going to want paying a fair bit for the risk of doing it - probably not cost much more for them to do the work in the first place.

Keeps coming up in here ...this one dont it.....like oh well i just did this work and i need someone to issue a EIC for it.......the minuite this takes a hold it will be the end for a lot of good, competent sparks......bloody no chance....lol.......

 

[berko]

Probably just repeating what has already been said, but under part p, only the installer themselves can issue the certs (or the installing company). Anyone who is going to sign of someone elses work is going to want paying a fair bit for the risk of doing it - probably not cost much more for them to do the work in the first place.

So why do so many sparks say they can do it? And I know the building inspector is happy for this to happen too, seen it with my own eyes. I've never known one to say they're not allowed to issue a cert if they are not the ones doing the work. What your saying makes more sense though.

 

[TIGGERTOM13]

Part P is a self cerfication scheme, so really you cant issue a cert if you havnt done it. One way maybe would to get a full installation cert that has signatures for the person in charge if the design, the install and the inspection and test. This is usually done on large jobs where a designer has designed the installation and the contractors are working to their drawings ans specifications. Thus the contractor has no come back for design isssues if he follows the designers drawings. But this is not common for domestic jobs.

 

[supasparxs]

Yes any of us could lie and say we carried out the work in you home.
But the inland revenue can check with building control in regards works we have done. The tax man would have an idea on the cost of a rewire and we would have to prove that you had not paid us cash in hand.

In addition we all have spent years learning our trade. In my case I have spent 4 years at college and as an apprentice.
In addition I have spent 24 years of experience and expertise.

I have about £2000 worth of test equipment, about £1000 worth of plant.

I carry either £2m worth of PL insurance and £250,000 worth of PI insurance.

I have on going assessments and registration with a reaccrediting body as well as licences for access equipment (plasma and ipaf)

You can hire me, my plant, experience to carryout the work. Either all of it or none of it.

Does this make sense?

 

[supasparxs]

Part P is a self cerfication scheme, so really you cant issue a cert if you havnt done it. One way maybe would to get a full installation cert that has signatures for the person in charge if the design, the install and the inspection and test. This is usually done on large jobs where a designer has designed the installation and the contractors are working to their drawings ans specifications. Thus the contractor has no come back for design isssues if he follows the designers drawings. But this is not common for domestic jobs.

Good reply

 

[berko]

Part P is a self cerfication scheme, so really you cant issue a cert if you havnt done it. One way maybe would to get a full installation cert that has signatures for the person in charge if the design, the install and the inspection and test. This is usually done on large jobs where a designer has designed the installation and the contractors are working to their drawings ans specifications. Thus the contractor has no come back for design isssues if he follows the designers drawings. But this is not common for domestic jobs.

Thanks, that clears things up.

Yes any of us could lie and say we carried out the work in you home.
But the inland revenue can check with building control in regards works we have done. The tax man would have an idea on the cost of a rewire and we would have to prove that you had not paid us cash in hand.

In addition we all have spent years learning our trade. In my case I have spent 4 years at college and as an apprentice.
In addition I have spent 24 years of experience and expertise.

I have about £2000 worth of test equipment, about £1000 worth of plant.

I carry either £2m worth of PL insurance and £250,000 worth of PI insurance.

I have on going assessments and registration with a reaccrediting body as well as licences for access equipment (plasma and ipaf)

You can hire me, my plant, experience to carryout the work. Either all of it or none of it.

Does this make sense?

Yes, but what doesn't make sense is that you felt the need to list all your attributes, I was not suggesting you would ever issue a cert for work you had not done, or that you do things illegitimately. I however have always been led to belive that you can do what ever work you want, then get someone to cert it for you. Apparently I was wrong.

 

[supasparxs]

Why don't you employ an electrician to carryout the work?

 

[DaveyD]

Hi Berko, I think you may be confused with building control. What you can do is contact them BEFORE you start any work on your home. Get them to agree your work. Pay their fee. First fix, get building control back. Then 2nd fix and then get them back again to get it signed off. If building control are involved with the whole process and are a. Paid and b. Happy with your work THEN you can do the work yourself on you OWN home. If it makes it feel a little less unjust to you then think of this; if we had not part p registered the we too, even though qualified, would have to go the same route on our own home.
Hope this helps
David

 

[supasparxs]

nah, we have great big hamsters. little hamster is on top gear.

hmmm up here in Lancashire big hamster are know as rats........

 

[Burnt Fingers]

100A isnt that high in a big house with an amateur welder living there

 

[jayonwheels]

As for getting a shock whilst standing on a ceramic floor only in contact with the live conductor, maybe a tiny bit of capacitive coupling (if that's the correct term?). I.e. no current flowed 'through' you, just that your body can hold a few extra or loose a few electrons so the live conductor just pushed a few in and out but none went anywhere. I wouldn't have thought 230 would be enough to feel that though.

 

[Big n Daft]

What do you mean, why?

do wr really have to go into this?

 

[berko]

do wr really have to go into this?

Of course not. But I genuinely did want to know what your arrogant post that had nothing to do with the now old thread was actually about. Thanks.

 

[Rampage]

Where does it say in BS7671 that you need NVQ 3 to sign off work under Part P?