Advice needed with manufacturing electrical equipment | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Advice needed with manufacturing electrical equipment in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

kenai36 not having a pop at your, admire anyone seeking advice. Just think your company would be on a hiding to nothing, if someone got hurt from their products, especially as it appears they have no suitable designers/engineers. Getting advice/instruction from a forum, would hold for nothing in litigation IMO.
 
kenai36 not having a pop at your, admire anyone seeking advice. Just think your company would be on a hiding to nothing, if someone got hurt from their products, especially as it appears they have no suitable designers/engineers. Getting advice/instruction from a forum, would hold for nothing in litigation IMO.

An interesting conundrum here ... you are quite correct regarding someone being injured or worse. However, how about a thought experiment ... what if the equipment is either intrinsically 'safe' or never experiences a set of circumstances that cause it to either fault or a fault occurs but the circumstances are such that no one is hurt? Is the company negligent at this point despite having no 'competent' designers or engineers. Does it need these people or is it already acting within its own boundary of competence?


Nothing is perfectly safe or will remain that way indefinitely ... moth or rust eventually corrupt! In our litigious society, which let us assume for the moment came to the UK from 'across the pond', we have forgotten this very fact and believe that we can insulate ourselves from all risk. What kind of topsy-turvy world do we live in when a packet of peanuts has to carry the disclaimer that 'This packet may contain nuts!'? More so, in our daily lives it is someone else's fault if we are inadvertently put at risk by their deliberate or unknowing actions!


Unfortunately, in my opinion, society is going backwards in pursuing the current path of litigation, it is yet another money making scam which profits the few, often not those in need, whilst taxing the many. We would not have any of the technology that we have today if the current risk averse approach were taken in its development. Bridges have collapsed and trains and aircraft have crashed costing lives because of 2 things. Firstly lack of knowledge at the time of load carrying capacity, material decay characteristics and cyclical loading leading to fatigue as well as other often previously unknown phenomena. Secondly, and in my view this is unacceptable, the selfish pursuit of putting profit before delivery. Deliberate profiteering or gross negligence by using substandard or inadequate materials, processes or approach to solving a problem.


If this company or any other body, let us say a someone with a Electrical Trainee qualification, is operating within the bounds of their competence or skill, delivering a product or service that is as safe as reasonably practicable in their chosen technology then so be it. However, if the same entity is deliberately profiteering or demonstrating a reckless disregard for public or employee safety then they should be dealt with under the full force of the law. More importantly in my view is the fact that the customer retains responsibility for being sufficiently informed regarding the safe use or operation of the product or interaction with the service. They should not be able to vexatiously claim liability against the manufacturer or installer.
 
An interesting conundrum here ... you are quite correct regarding someone being injured or worse. However, how about a thought experiment ... what if the equipment is either intrinsically 'safe' or never experiences a set of circumstances that cause it to either fault or a fault occurs but the circumstances are such that no one is hurt? Is the company negligent at this point despite having no 'competent' designers or engineers. Does it need these people or is it already acting within its own boundary of competence?


Nothing is perfectly safe or will remain that way indefinitely ... moth or rust eventually corrupt! In our litigious society, which let us assume for the moment came to the UK from 'across the pond', we have forgotten this very fact and believe that we can insulate ourselves from all risk. What kind of topsy-turvy world do we live in when a packet of peanuts has to carry the disclaimer that 'This packet may contain nuts!'? More so, in our daily lives it is someone else's fault if we are inadvertently put at risk by their deliberate or unknowing actions!


Unfortunately, in my opinion, society is going backwards in pursuing the current path of litigation, it is yet another money making scam which profits the few, often not those in need, whilst taxing the many. We would not have any of the technology that we have today if the current risk averse approach were taken in its development. Bridges have collapsed and trains and aircraft have crashed costing lives because of 2 things. Firstly lack of knowledge at the time of load carrying capacity, material decay characteristics and cyclical loading leading to fatigue as well as other often previously unknown phenomena. Secondly, and in my view this is unacceptable, the selfish pursuit of putting profit before delivery. Deliberate profiteering or gross negligence by using substandard or inadequate materials, processes or approach to solving a problem.


If this company or any other body, let us say a someone with a Electrical Trainee qualification, is operating within the bounds of their competence or skill, delivering a product or service that is as safe as reasonably practicable in their chosen technology then so be it. However, if the same entity is deliberately profiteering or demonstrating a reckless disregard for public or employee safety then they should be dealt with under the full force of the law. More importantly in my view is the fact that the customer retains responsibility for being sufficiently informed regarding the safe use or operation of the product or interaction with the service. They should not be able to vexatiously claim liability against the manufacturer or installer.

Blimey....don't know what to say about that. Anyways, just popped in from the garage. Doing a spot of DIY manufacturing. I've heard there's a future market for non-combustible CU's. I've made the enclosure out of 12mm plasterboard I had spare. Gonna use a bit of 2x1 batten to fix the mcb's to (it'll be alright!) Just the cable entries now. :smilewinkgrin:
 
Blimey....don't know what to say about that. Anyways, just popped in from the garage. Doing a spot of DIY manufacturing. I've heard there's a future market for non-combustible CU's. I've made the enclosure out of 12mm plasterboard I had spare. Gonna use a bit of 2x1 batten to fix the mcb's to (it'll be alright!) Just the cable entries now. :smilewinkgrin:

LOL ... are you competent in handling plasterboard and timber ... I don't think it will fly! 2 x 1 batten isn't very conductive ... unless subject to carbon arc tracking! I like it.
 
BS EN 12414:1999

Vehicle parking control equipment. Pay and display ticket machine. Technical and functional requirements

This particular document might be of some use, try and get a pdf copy.
 
Hi,
You can probably get a copy of the above standard at your local library, whilst you are about it have a read of
[h=1]BS 2754:1976+A1:1977 I know it has been withdrawn but it will give you a bit of a education. Now you need to remember what the bonding wire is for, it is to keep the touch voltage down to a reasonable value and cause the supply fuse to blow in a reasonably short time without being subject to physical damage. It is likley that the supply fuse to these units will be a BS 1362 fuse link and that the power supply it self will have double insulation between the mains supply and any selv (32V or less) supply within the unit. [/h]
These units should have been subject to type testing where first off the production line and and randomly there after are subject to severe testing on the earth bond and the double insulation.
In the case of the earth bond, it is typicaly required in this type of instance to be tested at 25A for 60 seconds and maintain a resistance of less than 0.1 ohm throughout the test and not subject to damage from over heating. Likewise the double insulation will be tested to twice the normal flash test voltages for 60 seconds and have no sign of breakdown. Due to the nature of the type testing flash test the unit is not considered safe for further use and must be destroyed.

Given the use of the safety earth conductor, which is protected within the appliance then 1mm may be more than adequate.
 
Hi Midwest,

I know what you're saying and it worries me, hence asking for advice on here. The problem I run into is that there doesn't appear to be a BS for the products we make. There is a document on the government website that is very informative but just states that the equipment has to be safe, without any specifics. I sometimes struggle with the vagueness of the information provided, including BS 7671. Its statements like a "where reasonably practical" etc. Just tell me to use a 2.5mm cable!

Raparee thanks for for that article and your help. Not sure if we'd be able to flash test our units without destroying them as some of the components are a little bit temperamental at the best of times but I want to make sure we carry out the other tests on every peice of equipment that leaves the building. It's helped comparing notes.

Rich

You may find that the routine flash test is "normative" in the standard, this means you will do this unless you have got a very very good technical reason why not, and components being temperamental is not an excuse. I have seen the inside of one of these parking machines and it doesn't seem if that one was designed with static protection and other issues in mind! The unit should have been certified as safe by an external test house and should be able to advise on routine testing. If you need more help contact York EMC at Yate.
 

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