Advice of electrics in house

Philipsg2 · Sep 18, 2009

I am hoping that someone can clear up what i actually need to get done for my house electrics.

I need some extra sockets, a light fitting and the sitches changing. I have had 3 electricians out this week all which have told me 3 diffferent things. All have emailed mw with brief recommendations -

Electricial 1 ) - A old style fuse noard is currently installed with no RCD protection, i would recommend that a split load board is fitted with full RCD protection. No work can be carried out until this upgrade has been carried out.

Electrician 2) - After visiting your property we can carry out the works discussed under minor works and issue a certificate. We would recommend that a new Distribution board is fitted at some point as there no RCD protection.

Due to the lack of space we would not get a split load Distribution in the space. We would installer a smaller single board with RCD protection. I would also recommend a full electrical inspection as the wiring and some of the accessories look to be many years old.

Electrician 3 - I can carry out all of the work we discussed at your house. I would recommend that a new board is fitted at some point as you are still on the old syle fuse board. There is also a lack of RCD protection which does need to addressed.

So who is right?

I am just the customer??

Thanks Philip

Des 56 · Sep 19, 2009

Installing extra sockets is not minor work
An electrical installation certificate for an addition or alteration would be required
Labc notification or self certification thro a registered spark may be required
Changing sockets and the light fitting would be minor works

Any installation work carried out would have to comply with the current regulations,probably RCD protection
The way that Rcd protection is provided will depend on the standard of the existing installation
If the existing is old and bleak,then the RCd can or may protect only the additions
If its sound then the RCd may be covering the whole of the installation
For any addition the earthing and bonding has to be to current standards

A new consumer unit rarely has any bearing on safety or compliance
It may be cost effective to fit the new consumer unit rather than just RCd protection
If a new unit is fitted then the existing installation has to be tested and inspected for compliance and an installation certificate provided for the whole of the installation with each circuit test results
Rewireable fuse boards are noit old hat and there should be no issue with a rewireable board for compliance if the earthing and bonding are adequate and test results for the rewireables are within maximum permitted values

no circuit may be reconnected unless it is safe do so

electricAl · Sep 19, 2009

Yup, i can easily see how you might be confused with the conflicting advice. And unfortunately in an attempt to clarify the situation the usually solid Des may have unwittingly added more confusion (most unusual for him i must stress & it is late on) in his first section re: adding sockets - they can certainly be done on a Minor Works Cert providing they do not require "the provision of a new circuit" (i.e. wiring back to the consumer unit)

However i fully agree on Des`sentiments regarding the safety of many old style fuseboards - their existance in an installation is too often used as an excuse, by the ill-informed or chancers, to update to a more modern CU.
However, as any additional socket outlets required by yourself would REQUIRE rcd protecting, as Des said, it may well prove longterm to be more logical to renew, rather than add rcd protection just to the additional sockets. Fitting a `front end`30mA RCD is the other possibilty, however it won`t be compliant with current regs & is thus frowned upon but accepted under certain circumstances by Part P bodies.

As to whether the work is notifiable would largely depend on quite where they are fitted - in a bathroom, kitchen or in a garden etc would be notifiable, elsewhere probably not.

Hope it helps & get back to us if you need more clarification...

Des 56 · Sep 19, 2009

I tip my hat to my mistake
Assuming new circuit was my problem
Thanks for the correction

electricAl · Sep 19, 2009

Ẁe all make em - you set a high standard, inevitable given time.

I`m sure you will dutifully correct me when i make my next one m8

Philipsg2 · Sep 20, 2009

I spoke to the second electricain on friday as he does not blind me science and is a little more understanding - He basically said that the changing of light switches should not be a problem but the extra sockets in my kitchen are, as they need RCD protection.

He said it would be easier to put in a new 6 way board, he also advised that by installing a new board does not mean that everything will be ok, there may be issues with the test results and if there is i have problems as i have just decorated with fitted units, stone floor and wooden floors upstairs.

Also he did tell me that he is not NICEIC registered as yet and would i mind if he uses my property for a site visit from them if he got the work. I dont have a problem with that. The guy also advised i notify my local council about a board change, they said aslong as the electrican has accreditation for a part P course and a 17 th edition certificate they dont need to come out as he is compitent to do the work to the required standard.

So would i be ok using this guy or do i need some NICEIC?? I have seen the guys certificates and insurance and he seems a honest guy.

electricAl · Sep 20, 2009

First up, NO, you don`t need someone from the NIC. You need someone who is Part P registered & can self-certificate their own work. They could be from the NIC, or equally from Elecsa, or from Napit. Despite what your Building Control have misinformed you, none are preferable over another in this scenario. Period.

If you are to have notifiable work done (as you are proposing) by someone who cannot self-certificate - whether it be a non Part P spark or just as equally by yourself - then you will need to inform BC in advance & pay whatever charges they feel like slapping on for Inspection & Testing afterward (by a 3rd party) Be warned here, incredibly, this can be as much as £300! Kinda expensive for a few extra sockets & lights eh!

Gotta admit, i`m puzzled at your mention of "accreditation for a part P course" as a pre-requesite for your chosen electrician. They surely said "registered with a Part P body" or similiar? (Please be kind enough to clarify) If not, then they themselves are breaking their own Part P of the Building Regulations - which wouldn`t surprise too many of us here, i`m sure.

If, for whatever reason he fails to get assessed, or they take exception to the fact he didn`t notify BC in advance, then you would have been put in a precarious position. Only the person erecting the work can sign it off with an Electrical Installation Certificate so the lovely Building Control would have to be approached to aquire a `Regularisation Certificate`

Not a great position to be in.

You have been fairly warned of the possible pitfalls.

But the choice is yours

Philipsg2 · Sep 20, 2009

I rang building control and thier answer was if the electrician holds part accreditaion such as a NICIEC DISQ certificate and a current 17th edition certificate they have no issues, i know that the electrician in question did ring them and he was told the same.

That is why i rang building control to double check, they said that electrician to issue a certificate and put in a cover letter to say they have spoke to building control and they are happy that the work is being carried out by a compitent person.

The guys exact words was " i am not prepared to take £190 from you if the electrican has them two qualifacations as we would only send out someone who is qualified to the same level.

Regarding the part p accreditation the electrican was made redundant and is now working for himself, as of yet he is not a member of any part p body or trade organisation as yet.

Mark.W · Sep 20, 2009

Did this electrician tell you he was not registered before or after you asked him! If he said it before then I would tend to believe him, if he told you after you asked him I would have thought he is a chancer who had no intention of informing BC! I would go with someone who is registered this way you can be assured he is competent and has the correct insurances etc in place......!

Philipsg2 · Sep 20, 2009

He told me off his own back that is why i called building control who said they were happy for him to carry on.

Mark.W · Sep 20, 2009

Ok he sounds legit but make sure he has insurance etc !

Best of Luck

electricAl · Sep 20, 2009

Thanks for the clarification.
In that case then, Philip, you can disregard the `precarious position` warning of my last post. And good for you!

However, whilst you may not fully appreciate quite why, the individual approach shown by your Local Building Control is simultaneously;

a) completely confusing to all of us that get completely different directives from our own BC`s

b) refreshing for it`s unusually sensible, straight forward approach (if every BC took this approach all the Part P regulatory bodies would be out of business overnight)

c) a real kick in the teeth to all of us who shell out hundreds each year to the Part P bodies - when all we actually have to do is go on a couple of quick courses (& the DISQ & the 17th Ed are so easy they`re virtually impossible to fail!) No assessment, no proof of Inspection & Testing competence, no nothing? Urrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

d) Illegal.

& i`m not joking.

Only a small matter to BC i guess - legality.
But if the Building Regs 2000 are law (& they were the most important laws out there last time i spoke to the little Hitlers at BC) then Part P of Building Regs is also still law. Part P dictates ONLY members of registered bodies can carry out notifiable work. Not people applying for assessment to be registered. Nor if they ring on a rainy Tuesday at 18 minutes past 2. BC`s aren`t lawyers. They can`t interpret the law just as they please. If they actually told you that, then they are actually suggesting you break the law with their permission. "Don`t worry about it mate, go right ahead mate. This is Building Control -we make the law. Hahbloodyhaha"

I really don`t know whether to laugh or cry. What a crock of ****

But good luck with it all the same. You only wanted a couple of socket outlets afterall. Can you believe what we have to contend with to give you what you wanted?

I`m off to sit in the corner...