AFDDs are a massive fraud

[Cookie]

Derailed another thread with AFDDs, so I am starting this one. I will simply say that UK RCDs and MCBs provide arc fault protection as is. UL not only knows that, but extensively researched UK power systems in an effort to emulate the very same concept 40 years. One the simply fact (growing concern) that the US National Electrical Code does not prohibit a maximum earth fault loop impedance.

 

[Cookie]

LOL- asking me for a location We can still be friends though

 

[telectrix]

Yes, and if twin and earth is damaged a parallel arc is between two points: live to earth or live to neutral. Live to earth is covered with the RCD and breaker coil, live to neutral via the breaker's magnetic trip coil.

So any parallel protection an AFCI offers is redundant at best.

what about an arc L-L or N-N? e.g. on a fractured cable.

 

[Cookie]

what about an arc L-L or N-N? e.g. on a fractured cable.

You need in excess of 5 amps (at least for US AFCIs) and the AFDD must successfully recognize it.



Often not:

 

[Cookie]

Here is how fast they are supposed to trip per UL1699 (in 8 half cycles) and IEC-62606:

 

[Midwest]

LOL- asking me for a location We can still be friends though

Well you live somewher, presumably?

 

[static zap]

LOL- asking me for a location ...

Not being that nosey, just getting a feel for the bad habits you may have picked up.
(touch testing for 120V to earth !)
Helps us chose relevant advice.

 

[Des 56]

I have read the thread and it has connotations with other fables I read such as "man did not set foot on the moon"or "the illuminati are hell bent on controlling this planet," (one world government)

Conspiracy theories abound and conspiracy theorists are ever ready to find motive where none may exist

The Iet (bless em) are not anything other than a bunch of sometimes impressionable folk, who happen to have lived their lives(like us) thinking electrons,they are not best placed to accept nonsense too often

They have been and will be susceptible to dodgy influence on occasion but not where technical issues are concerned
The concern in this thread smells like little more than conspiracy theory and big business is on the prowl mentality

 

[Cookie]

I have read the thread and it has connotations with other fables I read such as "man did not set foot on the moon"or "the illuminati are hell bent on controlling this planet," (one world government)

Conspiracy theories abound and conspiracy theorists are ever ready to find motive where none may exist

The Iet (bless em) are not anything other than a bunch of sometimes impressionable folk, who happen to have lived their lives(like us) thinking electrons,they are not best placed to accept nonsense too often

They have been and will be susceptible to dodgy influence on occasion but not where technical issues are concerned
The concern in this thread smells like little more than conspiracy theory and big business is on the prowl mentality

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories. People jumping to fantastic conclusions based on incomplete information or bodged journalism.

On the other hand we not only have ample evidence saying so but also science calling AFDDs out as marketing hubris.

Nowhere will you find official documents saying XZY never happened or ABC is just a hologram however here in black and white the creators and researchers of AFCIs freely admit their efforts of trying to mimic European circuit breakers. It can not be any clearer.

Just because a few trolls out in the internet abyss have ruined any view of descent by being vicious unhinged bullies does not make every single person who calls out bad ideas as crazy or a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Cookie]

Not being that nosey, just getting a feel for the bad habits you may have picked up.
(touch testing for 120V to earth !)
Helps us chose relevant advice.

You do realize that most US electricians hate AFCIs with a passion for all the call backs. Litterally every other day there is a thread on US electrical forums for AFCIs nusinace tripping without cause. The circuit will hold on a GFCI breaker, the romex is meggered, the connections checked and rechecked yet they still trip at random times without reason. Tripping has also been reported for MV faults outside the structure, faults on other circuits and tripping without anything connected the breaker. Even RFI has been known to trip them:

Eaton has since claimed to have resolved the above but nuisance tripping is still going on to this day even with new breakers of all manufacturers.

And by the power of logic if they can trip on LED lighting and functioning appliances who says they can or will trip on supposed dangerous arcing?

 

[Cookie]

westward10, marconi and Pete999 did you guys not read the links/PDFs? Your system is already AFDD.

 

[marconi]

I have not read or looked at what you attached - sorry I am pre-occupied with two projects at the moment.

I have not thought (yet) too much on AFDs and take your point about the UK system with magnetic/thermal mcbs, RCDs and care about wiring and earth fault impedances being successful in some/most situations of detecting parallel arc faults ie between live conductors or between line and earth and neutral and earth. I too am dubious about their efficacy in the UK setting and great potential for nuisance tripping undermining their merit.

I asked earlier 'why now' had AFDs been introduced into our wiring regulations by the IET. I don't know the answer (yet) but assumed it was to deal perhaps with serial arc faults as might be found at loose wiring connections which mcbs and RCDS usually will not detect. But then too there is the great potential for nuisance tripping of AFDs installed to detect serial arc faults as switches are opened and closed. I doubt the current state of AFD technology can distinguish reliably between true serial arc faults of wiring and normal switch operation.

I don't know enough to state a professional opinion on AFDs but do think Cookie is being genuine about how poorly AFDs perform in practice in the USA.

PS: It adds to the interest of a poster if we at least know where they hail from though no need to give one's actual address. Recently, I quite liked to know the EF was helping a chap in Addis Ababa.

 

[Cookie]

I asked earlier 'why now' had AFDs been introduced into our wiring regulations by the IET.

The plan is to make AFDDs global. The IEC now recommends them thanks to UL being so heavily involved with the IEC and its committees.

I'll find the link, but they also have members from Eaton on those committees. The bias is to obvious.

I don't know the answer (yet) but assumed it was to deal perhaps with serial arc faults as might be found at loose wiring connections which mcbs and RCDS usually will not detect. But then too there is the great potential for nuisance tripping of AFDs installed to detect serial arc faults as switches are opened and closed. I doubt the current state of AFD technology can distinguish reliably between true serial arc faults of wiring and normal switch operation.

Truth is they can't. This is the norm in US forums:

Article 700 Emergency power components

Starting with a 700.2 compliant Emergency Power System, also known as Life Safety, with a generator meeting NFPA 110 and an ATS listed under UL1008. Customer wants to add a portable generator docking station with quick-connect plugs (aka CamLok plugs) and a manual transfer switch, also UL1008...

forums.mikeholt.com

But even if they could reliably detect serial arcs (and even glowing connections) mandating them is wrong because code should not dictate technology. Point of use thermal detection can detect serial arcing at fittings and with a much high degree of accuracy in theory. Think Thermarestor as an example. If flex was screened that would detect a series break by tripping the RCD.

I don't know enough to state a professional opinion on AFDs but do think Cookie is being genuine about how poorly AFDs perform in practice in the USA.

The US is rather eye opening, it will tell you everything you need to know.

 

[static zap]

...Tripping has also been reported for MV faults outside the structure, faults on other circuits and tripping without anything connected the breaker. Even RFI has been known to trip them:.....

Feeling your pain ,
formerly whole houses on dual 30mA RCDs
with similar waking up "in the dark" experiences.
In the name of safety !

 

[JK-Electrical]

I have read the thread and it has connotations with other fables I read such as "man did not set foot on the moon"or "the illuminati are hell bent on controlling this planet," (one world government)

If one world government is a "fable", then why are all these prominent people talking about the creation of a one world government?

Conspiracy theories abound and conspiracy theorists are ever ready to find motive where none may exist

Likewise, coincidence theories abound, and coincidence theorists are ever ready to deny motive where motive may have existed.

 

[Cookie]

Feeling your pain ,
formerly whole houses on dual 30mA RCDs
with similar waking up "in the dark" experiences.
In the name of safety !

Thanks for understanding. But RCDs have actually been shown to protect people and property.And be happy your usually have no electronics. 100% of US RCDs are of the voltage dependent type.