Do you build control systems? If so, how old are you?


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    39

D Skelton

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Mentor
Arms
So reading through a few of the recent threads where lack of skills in the industry seems to be the main bone of contention, I'm personally interested in the way that the industry is changing with bias towards the domestic sector. It seems to me that most of those coming out of college nowadays only seem to want to know about twin and earth.

I'm still young, under 30 that is, but despite having a crap education for the first two years I spent at college, I was lucky enough to learn from a lecturer in my final year who had only known commercial and industrial work, a rarity these days I know, considering most of the lecturers at my local college have never spent a single day on site! My last year had a heavy design bias and a lot on motors, with an apprenticeship served mainly within the commercial environment, I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones. Still, during college and after leaving I took it upon myself to learn about things we never covered such as basic safety systems for machinery, basic plc programming and control panel design, build and fault recification.

The point is, I still have a hell of a lot to learn, and will continue to do so for years to come, but have at least got my foot in the door of a sector within the industry which I can see almost becoming extinct in later years as all the top boys start popping their clogs.

What I want to know is simple. If you are an electrician, an engineer or a trainee electrician or engineer and you can either do all of the following three things or are learning to do all of the following three things; put together a control system, no matter how basic or complex, program a plc, no matter how basic or complex and implement or at least understand how a basic safety system works, what is your age?

That's it.
 
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I can only write basic ladder though. But I do panel design and build, installation work, machine maintenance, process, control etc.

I'd probably suck at wiring a house, I'd be too slow to make any money.
 
Damian, the day you know it all will be the day you die.

Forty five years in this sodding industry and I’m no where near the point when I’m totally confident that what I design is “legally” correct.

The first time I was asked to incorporate a PILZ relay, “I’m not putting that in!” It’ll make an emergency stop dangerous.




Time and tide wait for no man. Just go with the flow, it’s easier.
 
Damian, the day you know it all will be the day you die.

Forty five years in this sodding industry and I’m no where near the point when I’m totally confident that what I design is “legally” correct.

The first time I was asked to incorporate a PILZ relay, “I’m not putting that in!” It’ll make an emergency stop dangerous.




Time and tide wait for no man. Just go with the flow, it’s easier.

The thing is, there is going to be a time when people like yourself will be no more. The reason I want to know ages is because I want to know if all the experts in this field are over 50, or at least fast approaching. In 20 or 30 years time, how many 'me's' are there likely to be on forums such as these.

There are a small handful of people that use this forum for example that I imagine can do the three things listed, at the time of posting this, you and DW have posted, both I would consider experts in this field. There are more, and I've a long way to go to reach your level of knowlege, or even close!

I just can't imagine a time where it will be down to people like me to keep this area of the industry alive!

Quite a frightening thought if I'm honest.

I better get reading! Lol

There is so much knowledge contained within the heads of people like you, and it aint gonna last forever! I don't wish to come across as macabre, but I do worry for the future of this once skilled trade.
 
It's a poll DW. The clue is in the title :D

Whack yer age in there

Soz missed the pole bit, the industry has already got a 20yr gap of skills Im mown under replacing retired engineers where they have got my name by word of mouth, I travel Manchester, Liverpool and Hull to do simple repairs in my mind but the companies cannot source any local competent Electricial Engineers without ending up with domestic throwback out of their depth.
 
Looks like we’re all ready to pop our clogs.

Sorry Damian, but as the youngest, you’re it!

Ah crap! lol

Not sure I'm quite ready for that weight to be on my shoulders!

Surely there are some more youngsters either involved or getting involved with this side of things?!
 
Aged 27, wouldn't even know where to start on a panel build. I hold my hands up to having no experience beyond 'standard' installations of circuits and data, 90% of it in domestic situations. I fear i am a few generations behind the highly skilled electricians of yesteryear
 
I can string a control panel together and program a PLC of a good day and although on some days I don't feel it I'm under 50 still if that counts for much.
 
Not quite 50, though some days I feel 70, but a heck of a lot closer to 50 than I would like to be perhaps.

By the time my daughter finishes Uni after going there straight from A levels I'll be 50, so that could be a party!
 
i couldnt i know that, the only things i know about plc's etc ive learned online for my own curiousity, wouldn't have a clue about building a panel, i can read the drawings but that doesnt mean i would know what to connect where
 
The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.
 
Im under 30 but my skills would be quite basic compared to other members on here but then again give me another 20 years and i'll get there lol
 
The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.

Exactly i was hesitant to answer that i do panel building, certainly i can do what i'm told by following schematic drawings but to design a complex system from scratch would be a bridge too far for me
 
33, done some panel building, cat 1, cat 3 safety circuits and I know basic Plc. Operated a robot welder and problem solved basic problems.
 
I *did* it all at college, and wouldn't feel apprehensive about tackling it again now despite the years in between, but the reality of actually being asked is remote. The South West isn't exactly a buzzing hub of manufacturing installations.
 
I wouldn't know where to begin programming a PLC, but it's something I'd like to learn about. Same with most things - I can't think of anything worse than just going around doing domestic remedials and alterations like some kind of glorified van driver.
I don't know if it's necessarily a case of the skill dying out - it seems to me a lot of people entering the trade with a fixed idea of only doing domestic are older, having previously been in other occupations.
 
The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.

I added machine control systems and 3phase to my PLI and it tripled it .... most dabblers out there are non competent and not covered without even knowing they aint, so many times i've asked the customer to check the sparkies coverage they use and all of a sudden they are history lol ....quickest way to win a customer IMHO
 
I wouldn't know where to begin programming a PLC, but it's something I'd like to learn about. Same with most things - I can't think of anything worse than just going around doing domestic remedials and alterations like some kind of glorified van driver.
I don't know if it's necessarily a case of the skill dying out - it seems to me a lot of people entering the trade with a fixed idea of only doing domestic are older, having previously been in other occupations.

Crouzet Automatismes - M3 Soft Download
Download this and and have a play its easy to pick up simple programs ... its gets very complex though very quickly
 
Software is a great forefront ...and can give a full matrix, the idea being program inputs to program outputs...we can time them, nor, and or nand them.
But unless we follow old school mechanical/electrical safety devices, and these features can only be taught by experience. System can be dangerous as the designers ...
 
writing a program is not difficult but incorporating all possible safety measures can drive a program designer a bit daft.
you have to be so careful with your program to make sure the walking brain farts don't earn a darwin award ( by all means stupidity must be protected) (most normal workers have the common sense not to mess with stuff)
 
Am 41 now but covered basic ladder logic etc during apprenticeship.

Did some panel building for a while but always to a spec. With the exception of some VERY basic stuff.

No design skills whatsoever and haven't done any of the above for a good few years now.

Apprenticeships Are oinly for 4 years not long enough to teach everything from scratch and so are biased towards whatever the company employing you needs you to do.

I would say it is quite exceptional to have a good grounding in all aspects of electrical work and those who have it have worked long and damned hard to get it and should be able to charge accordingly.

The kind of work being discussed here is not run of the mill stuff and by nature will be down to relatively few sparks.

Consequently more susceptible to skill shortage.

I'm not convinced this is a new phenomenon TBH.
 
Not built any control panels for a few years now at one time built a lot of control panels for Pilkington's that were shipped all over the world for the float glass plants they supported quite interesting labelling and legending panels in foreign languages and checking and double checking to make sure they functioned as the labels and legends stated
 
Why would I want the control panel wireman to write the PLC software?

Why would I want the control panel designer to physically build the panel?

My own background is PLC/DCS software design, writing and commissioning, and general control system design including panel and safety system design. The companies I've worked for either had a panel shop or subbed it out. There are a million panel bashing companies out there.

Likewise with the installation, we design it in-house and sub out the supply and install.

I don't think its a dying industry, in fact there seems to be loads of work out there at the minute.

I'm 44 BTW....
 
As a poll result, yep to all and I'm over 50 -- nearer to the 60 end but Im not giving exacts away!!.

Though it may take me some time to get back into the swing of things and my sware programming skills are probably pretty rusty'ish now! I can still remember some ADA 83 code ......
 
One thing I learnt very early on. Production muppets are a bloody site more inventive than me. If there’s way to screw a machine up, they’ll find it.
 
I'm 32 and a year into my apprenticeship, I'm just getting into wiring some panels now and my master wants me able to design my own by the time I'm done.
 
I'm 46. Wired panels in the past, but mainly design them now. Still like to wire them up every now and then.
I have done some PLC programming but only with AB stuff. Other guys at work do the programming of our PLC's.
Done some safety training as well.
 
Im 21, working in the utilities industry, doing maintenance I currently make small control panels for small processes, I can program low level PLCs like your Zelios (Primarily schneider gear) and to high level structured text on M340, with a little help on the more complex control. Safety systems am I ok at to a basic level I usually have to ask for a bit of guidance on how more complicated panels/systems should be setup which the more mature guys help with. Ive got miles more to learn in my field of instruments and automation. But love all of it.
 
There's nothing to fear for the future.

The Internet will come to the rescue with forums;

How to Design and build control panels in 5 weeks.

How to program PLCs in 5 weeks.

How to design safety systems in 5 weeks.

The 5 weeks was just an arbitrary figure plucked from nowhere, it may be more or less in reality.
 
Over 45 but under 50, done most things listed at one time or another, worked for a couple of multi-national panel builders at different times, worked in a car plant for a while, only stuff I haven't done is the big stuff like what Tony and Rob has, nor managed large projects like E54, not qualified nor insured enough to actually design SIL systems like Netblind Paul or DW, but have wired them up as per spec and some fault finding experience with them, nothing on HV, nor hazardous stuff, I have done some fairly basic PLC programming. Also some testing and commissioning of switch gear, oh! and a bit domestic lol.

Always eager to learn more, I tend to stay in my comfort zone these days, I know my limitations and when I need outside expertise for either legislative reasons, or simply because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Every day is still a school day.
 
Over 45 but under 50, done most things listed at one time or another, worked for a couple of multi-national panel builders at different times, worked in a car plant for a while, only stuff I haven't done is the big stuff like what Tony and Rob has, nor managed large projects like E54, not qualified nor insured enough to actually design SIL systems like Netblind Paul or DW, but have wired them up as per spec and some fault finding experience with them, nothing on HV, nor hazardous stuff, I have done some fairly basic PLC programming. Also some testing and commissioning of switch gear, oh! and a bit domestic lol.

Always eager to learn more, I tend to stay in my comfort zone these days, I know my limitations and when I need outside expertise for either legislative reasons, or simply because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Every day is still a school day.


OP only asked your age bracket :smartass2:.... but as you name dropped me Ill say I enjoyed the post lol
 

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D Skelton

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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
What type of forum member are you?
Heavily Qualified Electrician / Teacher / Tutor - etc

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Age of those who can build a control panel and control a process
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Commercial Electrical Advice
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