bathroom extractor with timer, and rcd fcu

[Steve34]

hi guys, i've been asked to put a bathroom extractor with timer, now i haven't done one for ages but it was always a simple matter of 3 core from the light through a 3 pole isolator switch to the fan, but the property has an old fuse board with no rcd protection, i am also led to believe that most timer extractors need to fused down to a 3A?

now i've never used an rcd fcu before, but if i cut into the feed just before the light and added the rcd fcu with a 3A fuse, and did the fan isolator as normal, would that be ok, or am i over complicating things?

thanks for any advise. steve

 

[malcolmsanford]

Reg 701.411.3.3 was re worded in the amendment to include the phrase low voltage but kept the part with regard to

"All low voltag circuits of the location, by the use of one or more RCDs"

The chances are that the bathroom is paralleled with other lights possibly just the floor it's on if it's a divided installation, or the whole house. Therefore I would be putting the whole lighting circuit on the RCD, and you can do that easily by fitting a stand alone RCBO at the origin of the circuit

 

[onions1066]

A way round would possibly to rcd protect the bathroom via a rcd fused spur protecting the bathroom lighting by pulling the feeds back to it then feeding lighting from that. Then triple Pole isolator for fan as normal. But to be honest I would be recommending a board swap or stand alone rcd as Malcolm stated.

 

[Steve34]

cheers onions, sorry i probably worded it badly, but thats what i was trying to say. trust me if it was my job i wouldn't entertain it without a new consumer unit, but my builder friend is fitting a bathroom, and of course didn't realise such a small thing could be such pain in the arse.

 

[Octopus]

Or put the 3A RCD FCU before the light feed and you won't need the fan isolator too. Old CU, what about the bonding??

 

[Plonker 3]

A way round would possibly to rcd protect the bathroom via a rcd fused spur protecting the bathroom lighting by pulling the feeds back to it then feeding lighting from that. Then triple Pole isolator for fan as normal. But to be honest I would be recommending a board swap or stand alone rcd as Malcolm stated.

What just to install a bathroom fan?

 

[chrish_1977]

Or put the 3A RCD FCU before the light feed and you won't need the fan isolator too. Old CU, what about the bonding??

Only need to fuse it if its in the manufacturers instructions

 

[Octopus]

Only need to fuse it if its in the manufacturers instructions

Which is a good point.

May be we should all stop buying fans which need fusing down.

 

[colshaws]

If you were to fit an inline fan mounted in the loft (whichs would then put the fan and any wiring outside of the bathroom),would this then negate the need for RCDprotection?

 

[Octopus]

If you were to fit an inline fan mounted in the loft (whichs would then put the fan and any wiring outside of the bathroom),would this then negate the need for RCDprotection?

Well maybe but I would always use rcd protection so if the client later wants a wall mounted unit no further changes are required.

Others may disagree!

 

[telectrix]

If you were to fit an inline fan mounted in the loft (whichs would then put the fan and any wiring outside of the bathroom),would this then negate the need for RCDprotection?

.

depends. if you are taking the suply for your loft fan from the bathroom light, then you have modified thast circuit, therefore you must fit RCD protection to the lighting . then you have also to consider reg. 522.6.6

 

[HandySparks]

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depends. if you are taking the suply for your loft fan from the bathroom light, then you have modified thast circuit, therefore you must fit RCD protection to the lighting . then you have also to consider reg. 522.6.6

I would say that if you don't add or change anything in the actual bathroom, then you don't have to add RCD protection. After all, if you add another bedroom light to a circuit which happens to also supply the bathroom, I wouldn't even consider adding an RCD.

522.6.6, which edition of the regs is that?

 

[telectrix]

I would say that if you don't add or change anything in the actual bathroom, then you don't have to add RCD protection. After all, if you add another bedroom light to a circuit which happens to also supply the bathroom, I wouldn't even consider adding an RCD.

522.6.6, which edition of the regs is that?

sorry, red..... 522.6.101 in the green book.

 

[Guitarist]

.

depends. if you are taking the suply for your loft fan from the bathroom light, then you have modified thast circuit, therefore you must fit RCD protection to the lighting . then you have also to consider reg. 522.6.6

But how far would you go with this line of thought tel? If I install a loft light which is all surface mount and therefore doesn't require RCD protection, but I've tapped into a lighting circuit which also feeds a bathroom light, then effectively I've modified that circuit, so should I be fitting an RCD to the whole lot?
Imo, if you haven't taken any new cabling into the bathroom itself, and it's all surface mounted, then it won't need RCD protection. If you'd like to install one for peace of mind, then that's fine.

 

[telectrix]

hmm, see your point. it's how far do you go in this situation. my take is that if you are connecting into the bathroom light, maybe that would entail fitting RCD, as you are actually doing work in the bathroom.

 

[Guitarist]

I think that if you are introducing cabling into the bathroom then I totally agree with you. If, however, you can tap into the circuit in the loft away from the light fitting, and keep it all surface mounted, then no RCD required.

 

[onions1066]

What just to install a bathroom fan?

Yes of course it would be the best option if the customer would pay for it, so you would rather leave a rewireable than upgrade if they are happy to pay? Dillb I don't think we will agree on anything because you like to work to the minimum requirements by the look of it and I would rather work above it. We will never cross paths so its not a massive issue.

 

[onions1066]

Which is a good point.

May be we should all stop buying fans which need fusing down.

vent axia fans are now internally fused, they are phasing all the old models out and using up all old stock,

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I think that if you are introducing cabling into the bathroom then I totally agree with you. If, however, you can tap into the circuit in the loft away from the light fitting, and keep it all surface mounted, then no RCD required.

Oh come on, thats far too full of common sense!!

 

[colshaws]

If you were to fit an inline fan mounted in the loft (whichs would then put the fan and any wiring outside of the bathroom),would this then negate the need for RCDprotection?

Becuase of the different opinions/replies to my question I thought I would check with the tec department at Elecsa and got their opinion.


Good afternoon Colin,
Thank you for your enquiry.

If the wiring is straight out the back of the bathroom light and into the loft and the wiring is at no point less than 50mm deep in a wall, then RCD protection would not be required.

Regards
Mark Cooper
Technical Desk | ECA Services Division

 

[Plonker 3]

Yes of course it would be the best option if the customer would pay for it, so you would rather leave a rewireable than upgrade if they are happy to pay? Dillb I don't think we will agree on anything because you like to work to the minimum requirements by the look of it and I would rather work above it. We will never cross paths so its not a massive issue.

so a job that should cost about £100 turns out to cost over £500 all because of a bathroom circuit. How many deaths have you heard of because the circuit wasn't RCD protected?

Not many is it? So did people die randomly from electric shocks before RCDS were used?

 

[Guitarist]

so a job that should cost about £100 turns out to cost over £500 all because of a bathroom circuit. How many deaths have you heard of because the circuit wasn't RCD protected?

Not many is it? So did people die randomly from electric shocks before RCDS were used?[/QUOTE]

Actually, quite a few I believe

 

[onions1066]

so a job that should cost about £100 turns out to cost over £500 all because of a bathroom circuit. How many deaths have you heard of because the circuit wasn't RCD protected?

Not many is it? So did people die randomly from electric shocks before RCDS were used?

I said it was the best option, so if you came across a rewireable board you would just install the fan and be happy without even mentioning the need of an upgrade to the customer? That is not good practice or the actions of a competent electrician

- - - Updated - - -

so a job that should cost about £100 turns out to cost over £500 all because of a bathroom circuit. How many deaths have you heard of because the circuit wasn't RCD protected?

Not many is it? So did people die randomly from electric shocks before RCDS were used?

Obviously not many died because dillb said so

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I am supprised by some of the comments on this thread, and especially by the ESC's advice.
The requirement is to provide 30mA RCD protection for circuits of locations containing baths or showers.
As such the only way to comply with BS7671 is to provide 30mA RCD protection for the circuit.
Not part of the circuit, or just a bit but for the whole circuit.
Yes the options are to either replace the CU if it's one that either an RCD or RCBO cannot be fitted to.
Or install a stand alone CU next to the existing and place the RCD protection there.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Ultimately, BS7671 is more defining than a middlemans help desk.

 

[Guitarist]

I am supprised by some of the comments on this thread, and especially by the ESC's advice.
The requirement is to provide 30mA RCD protection for circuits of locations containing baths or showers.
As such the only way to comply with BS7671 is to provide 30mA RCD protection for the circuit.
Not part of the circuit, or just a bit but for the whole circuit.
Yes the options are to either replace the CU if it's one that either an RCD or RCBO cannot be fitted to.
Or install a stand alone CU next to the existing and place the RCD protection there.

As I keep being told by Elecsa tech help whenever I query something, "You are only responsible for the work YOU carry out". If you have not introduced new cabling into a room containing a bath or shower, then the customer is not obliged to pay for RCD protection. That said, if you carried out a like-for-like shower replacement and the manufacturers instructions state that RCD protection is required, or you replaced an extractor fan within a bathroom that states 3 amp protection is needed, then of course this must be complied with. I will always recommend RCD protection as per current regs, but I cannot insist on it where it is not breaking regulations.

 

[telectrix]

well put,

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As I keep being told by Elecsa tech help whenever I query something, "You are only responsible for the work YOU carry out". If you have not introduced new cabling into a room containing a bath or shower, then the customer is not obliged to pay for RCD protection. That said, if you carried out a like-for-like shower replacement and the manufacturers instructions state that RCD protection is required, or you replaced an extractor fan within a bathroom that states 3 amp protection is needed, then of course this must be complied with. I will always recommend RCD protection as per current regs, but I cannot insist on it where it is not breaking regulations.

Guitarist, could you please explain why you have quoted my post and then posted what you have?
As far as I can work out the only bit which appears relevant to either the OP or my post is the information Elecsa have provided you: i.e. "You are only reponsible for the work YOU carry out".
Perhaps other's hold a different opinion, but the information Elecsa have provided is no different to what I would provide, and have provided in this instance and on many other occasions.

As far as I'm aware the OP does not intend replacing a fan or a shower.
As such I have difficulty grasping why you believe such work has any relevance to either the OP or my post?

Again as far as I'm aware (I can only go by what the OP has posted), the OP is intending to extend an existing circuit, by installing a fan into a location containing a bath or shower.
Unless the OP intends the electricity to walk to the fan (I asssume they don't as they have made referrence to 3core from the light), then the addition will entail the introduction of new cabling.

I don't particuarly want to be rude, but if you do intend in the future to quote any of my posts, I would prefer it if your post actually had some relevance.
Thank you.

 

[HandySparks]

I think the thread diverted slightly at Post 9, where the option of locating the fan in the loft was mentioned, and therefore the possibility of keeping all new wiring out of the bathroom.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think the thread diverted slightly at Post 9, where the option of locating the fan in the loft was mentioned, and therefore the possibility of keeping all new wiring out of the bathroom.

Does it actually matter whether the fan is situated in the loft or the location?
Unless the fan is to be permanently on, or there is to be a separate supply and switch.
Somewhere along the way, the circuit feeding the light in the location will be extended.

 

[telectrix]

that was my contention. even though the fan is in the loft, the existing lighting circuit is being modified, so RCD protection for the circuit must be installed if not already present. i tend to feed fans in dependently of the light, but even so, they are still generally fed from the same circuit as the light.

 

[HandySparks]

Does it actually matter whether the fan is situated in the loft or the location?
Unless the fan is to be permanently on, or there is to be a separate supply and switch.
Somewhere along the way, the circuit feeding the light in the location will be extended.

I contend that if there's no new wiring or accessories in the bathroom and the fan supply is just connected to existing wiring in the loft, then there's no need to add RCD protection. The only change to the bathroom is that the new fan happens to be extracting air from it.

By way of illustrating my point, if you added a second ceiling light to a bedroom which happens to be on the same circuit as an adjacent bathroom (with all new wiring running on the surface in the loft), would you feel compelled to RCD protect the circuit?

 

[Guitarist]

Guitarist, could you please explain why you have quoted my post and then posted what you have?
As far as I can work out the only bit which appears relevant to either the OP or my post is the information Elecsa have provided you: i.e. "You are only reponsible for the work YOU carry out".
Perhaps other's hold a different opinion, but the information Elecsa have provided is no different to what I would provide, and have provided in this instance and on many other occasions.

As far as I'm aware the OP does not intend replacing a fan or a shower.
As such I have difficulty grasping why you believe such work has any relevance to either the OP or my post?

Again as far as I'm aware (I can only go by what the OP has posted), the OP is intending to extend an existing circuit, by installing a fan into a location containing a bath or shower.
Unless the OP intends the electricity to walk to the fan (I asssume they don't as they have made referrence to 3core from the light), then the addition will entail the introduction of new cabling.

I don't particuarly want to be rude, but if you do intend in the future to quote any of my posts, I would prefer it if your post actually had some relevance.
Thank you.

Apologies if I misread your post. I believed that you were saying that once you alter a circuit, you are responsible for protecting that whole circuit. I was merely pointing out that we are only responsible for work that WE carry out.
Regarding the OP, there was indeed a point where having the extractor fan in the loft was mentioned. My opinion is that if the fan is not installed in a room containing a bath or shower (ie the loft), no new cabling is introduced into that location, and the cabling is surface mounted, then regardless of whether you connect to the lighting circuit which then goes on to a bathroom, you are not obliged to install RCD protection.
Again, I'm sorry for misreading what you wrote.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Andy:
Whilst I am quite willing to accept that providing RCD protection to the lighting circuit because you have added an extra light in a bedroom and the same circuit supplies the bathroom, is a bit over the top.
The fact remains, that the requirement is to provide 30mA RCD protection for that circuit.
If you make an addition or alteration to that circuit irrespective of where that addition or alteration is, then if you want your work to comply, you would have to provide the required 30mA RCD protection.
Would you replace a CU and not provide 30mA RCD protection for a shower circuit because your work is outside of the location?

Getting back to the OP, installing an inline fan in the loft and supplying and controling it from a circuit that is not of a special location is fine, no 30mA RCD protection required.
However if the fan although itself not in the location, is to be supplied and or controlled from either the bathroom light or light switch, I connot see how you could make yourself believe that you are not adding to or altering the bathroom lighting circuit?
To my mind, if you're prepared to bend the Regulations that much, you might just as well not bother and install the fan in the bathroom.

Guitarist:
No I'm nefinately not stating that you would be responsible for the whole circuit if you alter or add to it.
What I'm stating, is that these particular circuits require 30mA RCD protection.
If you alter any part or make an addition, in order for your alteration or addition to comply, you must protect the circuit as required.
If you were to alter or add to a normal socket circuit, there would be no requirement to provide 30mA RCD protection for the rest of the circuit, as there is no requirement for the circuit to so protected in BS7671.
30mA RCD protection if applicable, would only be required for the cables and sockets you installed.
However if that socket circuit were in either an agricultural or horticultural installation, you would have to provide 30mA RCD protection for the circuit, as that is the requirement.
Providing the required 30mA RCD protection, in no way implies that you have taked responsibility for that circuit, you would still be only responsible for your addition or alteration.

 

[Guitarist]

Spin, I'm glad we agree on at least some of the issues raised here. While I do not agree entirely with your thinking here, I do have the greatest respect for your knowledge and experience.