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Tequila

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TNC-S main supply with 16mm swa supplying garage consumer unit from main consumer unit in house, then 4mm swa supplying pond equipment through pond fuse box. (Pond cable run approx 40m)
Pond has a metal unistrutt frame and cover over pond equipment, this frame has its support legs concreted into the ground making then extraneous.
How is this best to be bonded? PME supply so has to have min 10mm bonding conductor, Can't use pond supply cable armour as not equivalent to 10mm, Can't use cpc of cable as only 4mm. Are these the correct assumptions?
Do I only have 2 options?
1) 10mm protected earth cable connected to extraneous pond frame all the way back to garage earth terminal giving me 10mm bonding conductor back to supply. OR
2) earth rod at pond, and turn pond supply into a TT system. So 4mm swa earth conductor disconnected and insulated, along with the armour at pond. And 10mm earth cable from new earth rod at pond to cpc connection of pond fuse box and pond frame?
 
Thanks Julie could you expand a bit. I currently have TN-C-S supply to pond which on 1x rcd testing at pond disconnects within 300ms. With a PEN fault introduced at the supply, the 1x rcd test will still disconnect as fault current is taken by the parallel earth rod installed at the MET so wheres the danger of shock at the pond end via the extraneous frame with the supply disconnected?

There are actually a whole host of considerations behind the need to/to not bond , so it pays to understand these in order to understand why things are done the way they are.

So, let's imagine your house has its supply from a substation 100m away.

Ignore the line and neutral, when you consider the earth cable, that actually is at the potential of the earth at the substation - not necessarily the same as the ground potential at the location of the house.

Now imagine that your water pipes are metallic throughout, including the underground supply, which connects to your neighbour. Unfortunately your neighbour has a fault, a live conductor has contacted the water pipework.

If you were now to grab your kettle (at zero voltage due to the earth/CPC connection to the substation) and turn the tap (now at circ 230V due to the fault in your neighbour's house) you would receive this 230V!

What's worse is that this has nothing to do with your own supply, in this case, your kettle is off, so disconnecting the line or/and neutral will do nothing - the danger is coming in to your property via the pipes (an ECP)

This is the principal reason why we bond the water/gas etc at the point of entry - in this scenario, the bonding at your (and everyone else's) property safely sinks the voltage away, likely tripping the supply in your neighbour's property.

Of course there are many reasons why the pipework or local ground in general raises in voltage due to faults in supply cables maybe at high voltage etc etc this bonding keeps you safe by bringing all the potential sources of an induced voltage together at the same voltage.

However now the pipework is interconnected between properties then in the case of a fault between the substation and a group of properties (PEN fault) there could be substantial current flowing in the bonding conductor - hence the seemingly large size.

In your case, of a remote ECP the situation is kind of reversed, if one was stood on the ground local to the pool, and a fault elsewhere was to raise the potential of the ground to say 200V if you now touched the metalwork which is connected to zero volts -again you would receive 200V - and it's nothing to do with your actual 230V supply.

So bonding metallic stuff out in the wild when it doesn't have a good connection to the local ground would be a bad idea

(As an aside, this is why class 2 equipment is preferred, and why most power tools are now made class 2, when used outside if there was an induced voltage the class 1 CPC connection would present the same danger as described above)

If the metalwork does have a good connection to the local ground then the local ground will be brought to zero volts , but a substantial current could flow.

With TT you would be at that 200V when stood at the pool, but so would any local metalwork, in this case you need to ensure that contact with the earth connection from the substation is prevented.


The key issue about the whole bonding thing, is most of the time the danger isn't from your own supply, so disconnecting that won't solve anything.

Of course one still needs proper protection for your own supply in the case of a fault actually to do with your own supply.

Sorry bit of a long and boring post!
 
Last edited:
In your case, of a remote ECP the situation is kind of reversed, if one was stood on the ground local to the pool, and a fault elsewhere was to raise the potential of the ground to say 200V if you now touched the metalwork which is connected to zero volts -again you would receive 200V - and it's nothing to do with your actual 230V supply.
Thank for the reply its starting to sink in so to speak.. surely if the ground is at 200v then the metal connected to the same ground would-be 200v so no potential difference?
 
Thank for the reply its starting to sink in so to speak.. surely if the ground is at 200v then the metal connected to the same ground would-be 200v so no potential difference?

Yes, but if the earth from the substation was connected via the CPC to the metal, or to other exposed conductive parts if you contacted then you would have the 200V.

That's why if you TT anything you must ensure that the "real earth" from the substation cannot be touched at the same time.

If you bonded the metal to the remote earth at zero volts, and there was a high resistance between the metal and the surrounding ground you could have this high voltage between. That's why it is not a good idea to just bond anything and everything.

You would bond, only if the connection to ground is quite low, then you have the issue of substantial current flowing in the event of an issue.
 
If you bonded the metal to the remote earth at zero volts, and there was a high resistance between the metal and the surrounding ground you could have this high voltage between. That's why it is not a good idea to just bond anything and everything.

You would bond, only if the connection to ground is quite low, then you have the issue of substantial current flowing in the event of an issue.
Ok think I'm getting there. If I placed an earth rod at the pond and made a TT with low reading <200ohms and bonded metal frame to this with 4mm earth cable..
 
Ok think I'm getting there. If I placed an earth rod at the pond and made a TT with low reading <200ohms and bonded metal frame to this with 4mm earth cable..
Yes that's fine.

Remember to ensure that the earth/CPC and armour of the cable is correctly earthed at the source end, and is NOT connected to the rod, or anything that can be touched at the TT end.
 
Yes that's fine.

Remember to ensure that the earth/CPC and armour of the cable is correctly earthed at the source end, and is NOT connected to the rod, or anything that can be touched at the TT end.
Thanks Julie, one other scenario I'd like to run past you regarding similar situation with an aluminium greenhouse with an outdoor socket in it, and a plastic florescent strip light.
I'm thinking same solution. Rod at greenhouse to turn socket and light only into TT system. Note the now 3 installed rods at MET,pond and greenhouse are 10+ Meters from each other.
 
Thanks Julie, one other scenario I'd like to run past you regarding similar situation with an aluminium greenhouse with an outdoor socket in it, and a plastic florescent strip light.
I'm thinking same solution. Rod at greenhouse to turn socket and light only into TT system. Note the now 3 installed rods at MET,pond and greenhouse are 10+ Meters from each other.

Keep everything in the greenhouse class 2 and you don't need to bother.

The light sounds class 2 anyway - it's just a matter of making sure you don't have anything class 1 used.
 
Ok think I'm getting there. If I placed an earth rod at the pond and made a TT with low reading <200ohms and bonded metal frame to this with 4mm earth cable..
Has your metal frame a lower resistance to earth than your earth rod has ?
 
There are actually a whole host of considerations behind the need to/to not bond , so it pays to understand these in order to understand why things are done the way they are.

So, let's imagine your house has its supply from a substation 100m away.

Ignore the line and neutral, when you consider the earth cable, that actually is at the potential of the earth at the substation - not necessarily the same as the ground potential at the location of the house.

Now imagine that your water pipes are metallic throughout, including the underground supply, which connects to your neighbour. Unfortunately your neighbour has a fault, a live conductor has contacted the water pipework.

If you were now to grab your kettle (at zero voltage due to the earth/CPC connection to the substation) and turn the tap (now at circ 230V due to the fault in your neighbour's house) you would receive this 230V!

What's worse is that this has nothing to do with your own supply, in this case, your kettle is off, so disconnecting the line or/and neutral will do nothing - the danger is coming in to your property via the pipes (an ECP)

This is the principal reason why we bond the water/gas etc at the point of entry - in this scenario, the bonding at your (and everyone else's) property safely sinks the voltage away, likely tripping the supply in your neighbour's property.

Of course there are many reasons why the pipework or local ground in general raises in voltage due to faults in supply cables maybe at high voltage etc etc this bonding keeps you safe by bringing all the potential sources of an induced voltage together at the same voltage.

However now the pipework is interconnected between properties then in the case of a fault between the substation and a group of properties (PEN fault) there could be substantial current flowing in the bonding conductor - hence the seemingly large size.

In your case, of a remote ECP the situation is kind of reversed, if one was stood on the ground local to the pool, and a fault elsewhere was to raise the potential of the ground to say 200V if you now touched the metalwork which is connected to zero volts -again you would receive 200V - and it's nothing to do with your actual 230V supply.

So bonding metallic stuff out in the wild when it doesn't have a good connection to the local ground would be a bad idea

(As an aside, this is why class 2 equipment is preferred, and why most power tools are now made class 2, when used outside if there was an induced voltage the class 1 CPC connection would present the same danger as described above)

If the metalwork does have a good connection to the local ground then the local ground will be brought to zero volts , but a substantial current could flow.

With TT you would be at that 200V when stood at the pool, but so would any local metalwork, in this case you need to ensure that contact with the earth connection from the substation is prevented.


The key issue about the whole bonding thing, is most of the time the danger isn't from your own supply, so disconnecting that won't solve anything.

Of course one still needs proper protection for your own supply in the case of a fault actually to do with your own supply.

Sorry bit of a long and boring post!
Julie that’s a great explanation & we are talking of an open PEN … if this is the case then all metalwork on that system in a fault condition would be @ 230v including the Earth connections, during that fault condition.
If that is the case then there would no potential difference & assume no shock situation.
In normal fault conditions the OCPD would operate
 
Julie that’s a great explanation & we are talking of an open PEN … if this is the case then all metalwork on that system in a fault condition would be @ 230v including the Earth connections, during that fault condition.
If that is the case then there would no potential difference & assume no shock situation.
In normal fault conditions the OCPD would operate

That is one possible scenario, however it's not a likely one, it is fairly possible in remote areas, it can only occur if either the bonding isn't in place or all services are plastic, and even then only if the broken PEN is between the property and the last earh rod (as PME)

In general, the likelihood is that the PEN is upstream of a rod (PME) giving a limited current back via the earth - in this case the property would experience a reduced voltage L - N/E - it's why there is a suggestion that rods are fitted at the property supplementary to the PME (as Ireland).

However the most likely scenario is a Broken PEN, the bonding links the neutral in the PEN-less properties to the water/gas service to another property where the PEN is sound. In this case, imagine if two properties, both on the same phase /PEN happen to use their 10kW showers - the one sound PEN property would see the return (normally neutral) current in their bonding. (~90A)

Two showers is unlikely, however two EVCP is fairly likely and although only 64A it could be for many hours.

This as you point out , if it occurs at a remote type property could result in the earth/neutral raising to 230V - that would be the car bodywork! (Also any outdoor metalwork which is earthed via the CPC or supplementary bonding applied inappropriately.

Hence why PEN faults are a big concern with EVCPs
 
Yes that's fine.

Remember to ensure that the earth/CPC and armour of the cable is correctly earthed at the source end, and is NOT connected to the rod, or anything that can be touched at the TT end.
Julie, hope you had a good Christmas.. ive been having more thoughts on my TT earthing arrangement at my pond. The pond supply is protected by a single 30ma RCD back at the solar/battery backed up supply DB in the garage.. which trips at 66.2 ms when rcd test carried out at pond fuse box. This rcd is the only shock protection. Should the rcd fail to trip with fault introduced I'll have circa 7 amps of earth fault current flowing through my earth rod at 36ohms which will not trip the pond supply breaker which is 16amps at the pond end 20amp at the garage supply end. I guess I do have the individual fuses on the pond equipment themselves for example pond uv light which on a 2amp fuse so this would blow within 400ms? How can I make this more robust if needed? Another rcd at the pond end?
 

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