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gazdkw82

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So I was in a class today where the tutor was explaining how the neutral conductor works and why it is you don't get a shock from a neutral.

He explained that, if 1amp was to flow down the line conductor and into a light then 1a would be coming back down the neutral, however that's not the case for voltage. There is 0v on the neutral so that is why you don't receive a shock.

When I asked him why it is you can get a shock from a borrowed neutral he couldn't explain. He said he would get back to me.

I understand that the term comes from the concept that the neutral is taken from a different circuit so if you turn supply off to a circuit then the neutral may be shared by another circuit, but, I still don't understand how you can get a shock from it based it the 0 volts down a neutral concept??

I'm sure someone here will be able to explain
 
If you happen to disconnect the live supply but the neutral is being ‘borrowed ‘ from another circuit (common with a landing light which the neutral is fed from the up lights and the live fed from the down lights in older properties)which is energised, then disconnecting said neutral say out of a light fitting, it becomes a live conductor as you have disconnected it’s retun path and in effect it becomes 230v
 
you will get 240V on the neutral if it's not connected at the supply end. e.g. a broken conductor or a bad connection on the neutral side of the load. it's basic ohms law. V=IR, where V is the volt drop across the load. if the N is open circuit, then V = 0 x R = 0. therefore no VD across the load, so 240v on the N side.
 
[ElectriciansForums.net] Borrowed neutral explained
 
Still don't follow. So disconnecting return path of the neutral will make it rise to mains voltage?

What do you mean by return path?
Take a simple lighting circuit, if it’s energised and you remove the neutral from the supply side then all the lights stop working.
If you then test between neutral and earth then you will have 230 volts as the live is still making the circuit but you have disconnected the neutral return path to the source so the entire neutral conductor(of the lightning circuit) will be at mains voltage with the circuit still energised.
Making it a shock risk.
 
So you think circuit 2 is isolated, but because circuit 1 is live and a light that has a borrowed neutral from ct2, you will have 230v on that neutral from the light, and believe me a shock off a neutral is bloody painful, compared to touching live!
 
You will only receive a shock if the neutral is removed from the light fitting tho fed via circuit 1 which is still energised,as it’s still got a return path via the neutral from circuit 2.
All in all it’s a shock risk to however works on it.
 
Ah get ya. Makes sense now.

So the tutor was right in that neutral is 0v as it is connected to earth however what he didnt explain was that if you disconnected the neutral it would then become mains voltage because there is no return path for the circuit. So light goes out and neutral becomes at mains voltage.

Same principle applies with a borrowed neutral it's just that the neutral that is now disconnected from the return path is from another circuit.
 
It's difficult to come up with a safe way of working that eliminates shock risk if you remove a neutral from the neutral bar (due to possible borrowed neutral), without making other circuits dead to test for it (by insulation resistance).

For example: replace light fitting in upstairs bedroom. Isolate upstairs light breaker, lock off, prove dead (at the breaker you've just isolated, and also for good measure at the light fitting itself before you start taking wires out). Leave downstairs lights on - you note the landing light is fed from the downstairs circuit, provides a bit of ambient light from outside the bedroom.

Unknown to you, althrough the landing light is fed from downstairs lighting circuit (live), return neutral is via upstairs lights. Neutral is firmly attached to earth (on a TN system at least) at the board, but what if the bedroom light fitting you're replacing is between the landing light and the DB? As you separate the neutrals, you might frown, wondering if it was a coincidence that the landing light went off at that point, maybe you didn't even notice. At this point, the neutral tied to the neutral bar will be at zero volts (the same potential as earth), whilst the one attached to the landing light will be at 230V.

If you touch the (now live) neutral, and also the cpc, then your chances of getting a bad shock will depend on (a) whether there's an RCD fitted (both lighting circuits would need to be on the same RCD for them to work at all), but also (in the absence of an RCD), interestingly, what sort of lamp is in the landing light. If it's an LED, you might not even notice it, or just experience a little tingle. These pull very little current, a few mA - which means they have a high resistance, higher than your body, so most of the voltage will drop across the LED. If it's a CFL, then you would experience a noticable tingle, a reasonable shock - depending on your body's resistance own resistance, it might be the equivalent of 100-180V. The worst case is if it's a high wattage tungsten/halogen. There will be very little voltage dropped across this, so you will get a substantial belt.

Or perhaps you never even get as far as getting to the light. You isolate the upstairs circuit, lock off, prove dead. You want to ensure the circuit is suitable for alterations. You've already done a quick Zs at the light prior to locking off, to show there's an earth (and disconnection times are ok). Since you're at the board locking off, why not do a quick insulation resistance test? Of course that will mean disconnecting the neutral for the upstairs lighting circuit from the neutral bar. The moment you do so, it's a live conductor, and a shock risk.

How to eliminate this risk? Well, unless you (more likely, the customer) is happy for you to turn everything off while you do the work, it's tricky. You could make everything dead, remove the neutral of the circuit you want to work on from the neutral bar, then test the insulation resistance between this (disconnected) neutral, and the rest of the circuits still connected to the neutral bar. But not only does the "suspect" load (the landing light) need to be on, there also needs to be other loads on too - have a look at KEV1N's drawing in post #8: Remember, everything is dead at this point, we have isolated the whole board at the main switch, we want to work on circuit 2 (top) so we have removed that N from the neutral bar. To get a low IR reading that would tell us there is a problem, not only would the landing light need to be turned on, one or more of the lights in circuit 1 would also need to be connected. I suppose you could measure IR between the N you have disconnected, and L of every other circuit apart from the one you're working on... but the landing light (if that's the culprit) would still need to be on for it to show up.

So yes. Tricky.
 
Since I made my mistake not testing at a switch I thought was dead because I'd been cutting out the old line conductor working towards it, only to have that conductor disappear into insulation and then reappear (unbeknownst to me it was a different segment of the same cable supplied by a socket circuit which was not off - around 180v arm to arm), to improve my safety before I handle conductors I simply check....

AVI across them all connected in the accessory (if there is a load and a supply side, include both), and then once again when the accessory is removed. I check between them all.... takes seconds and greatly reduces the risk of a rather large tingle.
 

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