BS7671:2018 Proposed Changes

[Ian1981]

Flat below will have to find a use for the copper coated ceiling decoration they now have.

The incoming earth

Well the sensible people will install earth electrodes connected to the MET of the incoming supply to the building.

The less sensible people will be clipping green and yellow cables down the outside of the building to earth rods.

depends if each flat has an individual supply through their own meter and not one large incoming cable supplying a bemco.

 

[Flanders]

I can still think of plenty of types of circuits that have no requirement for RCD protection, installation method dependant of course.

Yes i guess your right ,
Smoke detectors
Intruder alarm
Water heater
Door bell

 

[davesparks]

Hahahaha can just imagine that. One for each flat

Yes, just like you see with main bonds to gas meters 'cos it has to be at the meter'

 

[Andy78]

Yes i guess your right ,
Smoke detectors
Intruder alarm
Water heater
Door bell

Cooker circuit, electric heaters, distribution circuits to outbuildings, boilers ........

I reckon if you tried you could easily design a domestic install without a single RCD in the CU.

 

[Ian1981]

Cooker circuit, electric heaters, distribution circuits to outbuildings, boilers ........

I reckon if you tried you could easily design a domestic install without a single RCD in the CU.

How each circuit in the bathroom has to be rcd protected

 

[davesparks]

Cooker circuit, electric heaters, distribution circuits to outbuildings, boilers ........

I reckon if you tried you could easily design a domestic install without a single RCD in the CU.

i think you'd still end up putting thbathroom lights on an rcbo, but apart from that you can do it with RCD sockets everywhere and steel conduit in all the chases.

 

[Ian1981]

i think you'd still end up putting thbathroom lights on an rcbo, but apart from that you can do it with RCD sockets everywhere and steel conduit in all the chases.

Plastic trunking for drops and light switches on pull switches.........
Proper rough!

 

[Flanders]

Cooker circuit, electric heaters, distribution circuits to outbuildings, boilers ........

I reckon if you tried you could easily design a domestic install without a single RCD in the CU.

I was just sugesting circuit that I could get away without the use of metal conduit , ie high level mounted spurs but , not sure how you would omit rcd protection in a bathroom , although you could have a frosted glass wall with the lights outside tbe bathroom

But as i mentioned the 18th addition with stop that with all lights requiring rcd protection

 

[Andy78]

i think you'd still end up putting thbathroom lights on an rcbo, but apart from that you can do it with RCD sockets everywhere and steel conduit in all the chases.

How each circuit in the bathroom has to be rcd protected

RCD remote from the CU or SELV.
Never said it was practical or desirable, just possible if you felt like an exercise in being awkward.

 

[bigspark17]

i think you'd still end up putting thbathroom lights on an rcbo, but apart from that you can do it with RCD sockets everywhere and steel conduit in all the chases.

18th will require any luminaire circuit to have rcd protection.
Afdd look good but the word "may be used" will mean people will not use them.

 

[Andy78]

Okay so apologies for derailing this one slightly, lets get back on track.

New reg 521.10.202 suggests that all wiring systems shall be supported so that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of a fire.
This replaces the old requirements for escape routes only.

Does this mean an end to clipped direct with PVC clips and plastic conduit saddles ? Buckle clips or similar and metal saddles are the obvious solution here, but does anything exist as a retro fit to existing containment systems like dado and perimeter trunking to meet this requirement ?
What about plastic SWA cleats ?

 

[davesparks]

18th will require any luminaire circuit to have rcd protection.
Afdd look good but the word "may be used" will mean people will not use them.

In what way do AFDD's look good?
Just look at the trouble they've caused in the USA where they are mandatory.
There is no practical way to test them, no way to know what has caused them to trip. And they suffer from massive nuisance tripping because the operate when they detect an arc, such as the arc that occurs in any switch or thermostat when you operate it,

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Okay so apologies for derailing this one slightly, lets get back on track.

New reg 521.10.202 suggests that all wiring systems shall be supported so that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of a fire.
This replaces the old requirements for escape routes only.

Does this mean an end to clipped direct with PVC clips and plastic conduit saddles ? Buckle clips or similar and metal saddles are the obvious solution here, but does anything exist as a retro fit to existing containment systems like dado and perimeter trunking to meet this requirement ?
What about plastic SWA cleats ?

In terms of protection from fire, i have come across flame retardant clips and plastic saddles that withstand fire/heat upto a certain temperature. This was whilst working in a firework factory store room. where the fire precautions were obviously very OTT. the saddles were made of a composite material similar to kevlar. I can't be sure what the standard type of cable clips were made of but they were supplied by the design specification team and ready for when we got on the job. Surely something along these lines could be used retrospectively?

 

[Rpa07]

In terms of protection from fire, i have come across flame retardant clips and plastic saddles that withstand fire/heat upto a certain temperature. This was whilst working in a firework factory store room. where the fire precautions were obviously very OTT. the saddles were made of a composite material similar to kevlar. I can't be sure what the standard type of cable clips were made of but they were supplied by the design specification team and ready for when we got on the job. Surely something along these lines could be used retrospectively?

OBviously not in that Chinese factory that blew a couple of years ago. Watching the footage of the second explosion and the air movement a couple of miles away at the car park barrier was epic.

 

[Rpa07]

Try this - epic

 

[Pete999]

In terms of protection from fire, i have come across flame retardant clips and plastic saddles that withstand fire/heat upto a certain temperature. This was whilst working in a firework factory store room. where the fire precautions were obviously very OTT. the saddles were made of a composite material similar to kevlar. I can't be sure what the standard type of cable clips were made of but they were supplied by the design specification team and ready for when we got on the job. Surely something along these lines could be used retrospectively?

Just another thing to make the job more expensive.

 

[davesparks]

Just another thing to make the job more expensive.

No, it's another thing to prevent the loss of human life.
Firefighters have died from being trapped in cables which were not supported with fireproof fixings.

 

[Rpa07]

According to tony and Darren, most fires are caused by arc faults in high resistant joints so if we fit AFDDs everywhere we shouldn't have to fit metal retainers!
Only joking @davesparks before you berate me!

 

[Anthony S]

No, it's another thing to prevent the loss of human life.
Firefighters have died from being trapped in cables which were not supported with fireproof fixings.

Exactly, pf200 enclosed in surface pvc trunking in stairwells across the bulkhead areas (in tower blocks) for smokes, call points, sounders.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

OBviously not in that Chinese factory that blew a couple of years ago. Watching the footage of the second explosion and the air movement a couple of miles away at the car park barrier was epic.

That huge explosion and fire in 2005 at Buncefield was much bigger and quite spectacular. supposedly biggest explosion since WW2. i was living in Amersham at the time and it woke me up. I dont think fire rated clips and saddles would have made much difference, neither would AFDD's.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Some short videos from the Electrical Contractors Association:

BS 7671 - 18th Edition of the Wiring Regulations is Coming

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC) - Impact of Part 2 - Definitions

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC) - Impact of changes Part 4 - Protection for Safety

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC) - Changes in part 5 - Selection and erection in equipment

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC) - Changes in Part 6 - Inspection and Testing

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC) - Impact of Changes Part 7 - Special Locations

BS 7671 18th Edition (DPC)- The New Part 8 - Energy Efficiency of Electrical Installations

 

[static zap]

..... how can something we've been doing/using for decades suddenly become dangerous overnight,............

This bit scares me ,must be documented cases of mistakes / failures / near misses .
(Like my ISO man at work , a continous process of improvement (at a cost),documenting mistakes , for areas to concentrate efforts on )
Cost -vs- Benefit . (legal twists pass on responsibility ?)
We may have come from well enginered culture , and are letting things slip ,
and maintanace costs get passed down to next customer .

 

[Pete999]

This bit scares me ,must be documented cases of mistakes / failures / near misses .
(Like my ISO man at work , a continous process of improvement (at a cost),documenting mistakes , for areas to concentrate efforts on )
Cost -vs- Benefit . (legal twists pass on responsibility ?)
We may have come from well enginered culture , and are letting things slip ,
and maintanace costs get passed down to next customer .

Eh ??????

 

[static zap]

Eh ??????

Too unstructured ? Too late ? (where is hightower's quote in mine ?)
Change for the sake of change ! RE Supplemental Earthing TN-C-S

 

[Hardwired]

What is the crack with upgrading to 18th Edition will my company pay for it amd the regs books? Will they schedule it for when the regs change over or what? I was only an apprentice when it went from 16 to 17

 

[Pete999]

What is the crack with upgrading to 18th Edition will my company pay for it amd the regs books? Will they schedule it for when the regs change over or what? I was only an apprentice when it went from 16 to 17

Wishful thinking Hardwired, wishful thinking, unless you are working for a very large company with it's own training budget.

 

[JK-Electrical]

What is the crack with upgrading to 18th Edition will my company pay for it amd the regs books? Will they schedule it for when the regs change over or what? I was only an apprentice when it went from 16 to 17

My company will be picking up the tab for the course along with the cost of the new 18th Edition book. The downside is that as a sole trader, I am the company.

 

[Pete999]

My company will be picking up the tab for the course along with the cost of the new 18th Edition book. The downside is that as a sole trader, I am the company.

Right OK

 

[static zap]

My company will be picking up the tab for the course along with the cost of the new 18th Edition book. The downside is that as a sole trader, I am the company.

So the TAX man gets you anyhow , offering taxible freebies to employees ?

 

[JK-Electrical]

So the TAX man gets you anyhow , offering taxible freebies to employees ?

Whereas HMRC considers a limited company to be a separate legal entity from whoever owns the company, a sole trader and his business are considered to be one and the same legal entity.

Fees incurred for any training courses that are wholly or necessarily for the purposes of the trade are a legitimate deductible business expense which can be set-off against tax.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'm in the same boat JK, we'll get it back in a roundabout way eventually.