Building Control Guidance on Retro-fitting Solar Panels

[Worcester]

@SRE, You know me well enough

It's about doing the right thing, and following best practices.

One of the biggest problems we have is that very few of the mounting systems come with proper comprehensive installation instructions.

When did you last get installtion instructions with a mounting system that you bought?

In other sectors, even roof mounted solar thermal, comprehensive step by step instructions are provided.

Yet the mounting systems we import direct from Germany regularly come with such detailed instructions, and from those it's aboslutley clear that in some instances, they shouldn't be used!!.

So to answer your question. Do your best, follow what codes you know, and most importantly, check with your local building control department (sorry about that one ) that they are happy with what you're doing. Even better, get them to profer a solution, (they'll like the opportunity to do that it makes them feel good!) don't throw a wobbler at their initial completely unworkable sugestions, bring them round to thinking that your solution was their idea and then confirm the solution in writing, by email at least.

Sorry mate, back to talking to them's as took all your money off you!

 

[solarsavings]

We were recently emailed details of a roof hook that doesn't require screwing to the rafter or hanging off a tile and batten like the clik system. Hopefully the manufacturer is a member of the "chosen" few who claim/have influence over what we do.

 

[solarsavings]

I have a 20 page confidential report that has been prepared on the problems associated with the current mounting systems, and I also know that there is a new MCS certification being drawn up that all mounting systems will have to comply to with and be certified before they can be used.

As a company we are developing mounting and fixing systems, that are fully compliant with the new standards, and are working with a number of the existing providers to help them develop compliant systems, you'd be quite amazed at what can actually be achieved, however until the spring, my lips are sealed!

If what you say is true then the whole system is a bloody disgrace. Why should a chosen few have early access to the "new" standards that will allow them to develop a system that complies. It stinks of corruption, and I for one intend making noise about it as of today.

 

[SRE]

If what you say is true then the whole system is a bloody disgrace. Why should a chosen few have early access to the "new" standards that will allow them to develop a system that complies. It stinks of corruption, and I for one intend making noise about it as of today.

There's nothing to stop you doing what Worcester is doing - other than what stops most of us - time and money.

That's the way of the World, would you have expected Apple to have opened up consultation to their competitors before they launched the Ipad or Ipod. I could spend all of my time lobbying trade bodies and government but I wouldn't have a business I don't have the time and if I made the time I wouldn't have the money. I chose not to expand although we very easily could and accept that the result of that is that I'm not as active in the industry as I'd like to be. BUT I do know where to go for answers and Worcester, TedM etc are usually happy to oblige.

Personally I appreciate the feedback that Worcester provides - I used to do that in my previous work and the installers that we cascaded info to always appreciated it. Everyone is richer for the contributions on this Forum.

 

[solarsavings]

It's got nothing to do with worcester and everything to do with "secret collusion" to change the type of mounting system we "can" use or how we use it. How you're able to link Apple to this beyond me. Apple to best of my knowledge is a private company, it has no impact on the way I work in any way. Do you honestly believe something so significant as the mounting systems we use should be decided by those with a vested interest?

I know that you are always happy to accept what you are told by worcester and that's fine by me. But if worcester is doing something "secret" that can have an effect on me and my business, then I for one am extremely unhappy about it.

I have have spoken to the MD's of two major players in teh UK this morning and the employees of a couple of others asking them if they are aware of this secret consultation going on as they are suppliers of mounting systems in the UK. Not one of them has heard anything about it. I am waiting to hear back from my registration body if they have heard anything either.

 

[SRE]

Thanks for insulting my integrity - I'll try not to take offence and assume that it's because you've got your knickers in a knot about something that you haven't done yourself. How on earth do you know what I believe? Most intelligent people take a range of views and opinions and make a decision themselves.

Have you read the instructions and consulted a structural engineer about the roof kits? I have and my guy is working through it but he's busy and I haven't time to chase it at the minute - if someone else is contributing to the legwork then I appreciate it, it diesn't mean that I will take as gospel what it says. I once took a Strathclyde University study to pieces in a very short period of time - not particularly Strathclyde's problem but they had been given a poor remit for their work and the result reflected that not the efficacy of the product they were evaluating.

Correct me if I'm wrong but pv installers, wholesalers, manufacturers are all private sector - if some of them chose to get together as a result of some structural concerns and come up with something that will make installations safer - what's the problem - that you haven't done it or thought about it? My point about Apple is that if they had consulted with others while developing it how would they have protected their IP - surely that's all Worcester et al are doing? Who's to say that you can't do a better job - will you consult with others and let them into your little secret? I think not. It's business, plain and simple.

I have shared information many times for it appear as someone else's brain wave - it's infuriating - I don't blame Worcester for keeping it quiet, I'd suggest that it's pretty good commercial acumen.

 

[solarsavings]

SRE, firstly I don't see that I've insulted you in anyway whatsoever. Perhaps my saying you are ready to accept what worcester says has left you feeling insulted but as I don't recall you ever challenging what he says I have to conclude you accept it. As for what you believe, I based that on your many responses to his various posts. If I'm wrong it waasn't an insult.

I have read the installation instructions on all of the mounting systems we use including the K2 ;-) and strangely always read the manufacturers instructions for the other equipment as well. I don't believe I need to use an SE to check the roof structure or clacs as I'm reasonably certain that I have the ability and experience to do both myself.

I have no problem with anyone "getting together" as you put it, providing it's in the open and or it doesn't effect me. But as this getting together was put to us as being "secret" and that it involves those that can impose their ideas on us as installers and suppliers I do have a problem. I want to know how that can be right and proper. If there is to be a new design standard do you think it right only a chosen few should be aware of it? do you think it right that those few should have the jump on others because they're in the know. If true, it stinks.

As for sharing your knowledge and experience, I thought you were both happy to do so.................or least that's how it seems to me.

 

[Worcester]

@solarsavings

The information I posted about is available to anyone in the industry if they care to put the time and effort into building and establishing the relationships that I have. This is not 'secret' however people aren't shouting about it, and like any industry some companies will develop an advantage because of the time they invest in the right places.

The report we paid for ourselves, it's independant. It's confidential, because some of it is highly contentious. You could do the same yourself.

What we are doing is not 'secret', it's what is going on in any industry as new standards are developed.

It's our own time and money that's going in to develop new mounting system - I'm not stopping you doing that.

As for sharing information, I'd have thought that after seeing this : see photos : you'ld be glad that some standards for mounting systems that everyone has to comply with are being developed

From a visit to a site today, from someone who was proud of their work, and wanted to show it off to see if he could join one of my teams, apparently they've done at least 20 houses this way. - So should I tell the house owner or not:


So should I give any advice to the guy as he is MCS certified, and believes he's doing a good job?

Or just say, "it's not to my method or standard sorry mate."

 

[solarsavings]

Worcester thank you for now clarifying your previous post. If you take the time to re-read your earlier post you may see it the way I did.

I have no problem with any company designing a better (or worse) mounting system as it's difficult finding one that has 'everything' my problem is if, as your post led me to believe, it's being done in secret with our lords and masters. The fact that you have doing it with your own time and with your own money is to be commended and maybe it might be the 'one' we're all looking for.



As for changing standards, again I have no problem with it and think perhaps one system that may suffer is the click system
( I wont cry about that). But changing standards should be done in consultation with the industry not without it.

Our short lived experienced roofers did this on their first job for us and said it was due to the mounting system. They were finished and on their way home by 11am.



We found this pile of broken tile under the modules.

 

[SolarCity]

Good God.... that is truly horrific. And this is the one they showed you?

Hopefully they haven't done many slate ones....

 

[MorganPVI]

Did you sign him up straight way Worcs? Lead Installer?!! Not sure I could have bitten my tongue, horrfic imo.

 

[SolarCity]

Are there some cushioning pads underneath those brackets? The movement in them must be huge. I'd give the install one week before all the slates under the brackets were shattered. Shocking install. Likewise SolarSavings example.

 

[SRE]

Never assume - you make an --- out of u and me - just because I don't challenge something publicly doesn't mean that I don't challenge it or that I believe it. I wasn't suggesting that you hadn't read the instructions, I was suggesting that you have the same opportunity as Worcester we all have - it's up to you whether you take it or not, but you can't complain when others do something just because you haven't had the nouse to do it yourself.

I'm happy to pass on the little experience I've got in this field if it helps someone else avoid some of the pitfalls we've encountered, I've never suggested otherwise.

 

[SRE]

@solarsavings

The information I posted about is available to anyone in the industry if they care to put the time and effort into building and establishing the relationships that I have. This is not 'secret' however people aren't shouting about it, and like any industry some companies will develop an advantage because of the time they invest in the right places.

The report we paid for ourselves, it's independant. It's confidential, because some of it is highly contentious. You could do the same yourself.

What we are doing is not 'secret', it's what is going on in any industry as new standards are developed.

It's our own time and money that's going in to develop new mounting system - I'm not stopping you doing that.

As for sharing information, I'd have thought that after seeing this : see photos : you'ld be glad that some standards for mounting systems that everyone has to comply with are being developed

From a visit to a site today, from someone who was proud of their work, and wanted to show it off to see if he could join one of my teams, apparently they've done at least 20 houses this way. - So should I tell the house owner or not:

View attachment 7739View attachment 7740View attachment 7741View attachment 7742
So should I give any advice to the guy as he is MCS certified, and believes he's doing a good job?

Or just say, "it's not to my method or standard sorry mate."

Can you send him up to use - we need training on installations on slate roofs. :cowboy:

 

[Worcester]

There is an edpm strip under the brackets, so yes there is some 'cushioning', however screwed down that tight, the edpm will be providing doing some whaterproofing.

 

[solarsavings]

Never assume - you make an --- out of u and me - just because I don't challenge something publicly doesn't mean that I don't challenge it or that I believe it. I wasn't suggesting that you hadn't read the instructions, I was suggesting that you have the same opportunity as Worcester we all have - it's up to you whether you take it or not, but you can't complain when others do something just because you haven't had the nouse to do it yourself.

I'm happy to pass on the little experience I've got in this field if it helps someone else avoid some of the pitfalls we've encountered, I've never suggested otherwise.

Sorry mate I can't make head nor tale of that.

 

[Worcester]

Time Out Guys - My fault!

I was just pointing to a ray of hope :sunny:for a standard that would clear the mess up that we have on mounting systems.

When it comes - it'll take a while (and all suppliers will have an opportunity to get their systems in-line with the regs), we'll all be in a better position and hopefully the mess that I found today will be a thing of the past, it just points to the absolute need for clarity and guidelines in this whole area.

 

[Markc]

When it comes - it'll take a while (and all suppliers will have an opportunity to get their systems in-line with the regs), we'll all be in a better position and hopefully the mess that I found today will be a thing of the past, it just points to the absolute need for clarity and guidelines in this whole area.

Second that exactly Worcester. As for development, Don't care how we get there as long as we DO get there.

 

[shes-electric]

When it comes - it'll take a while (and all suppliers will have an opportunity to get their systems in-line with the regs), we'll all be in a better position and hopefully the mess that I found today will be a thing of the past, it just points to the absolute need for clarity and guidelines in this whole area.

I for one say here her to that. Most of us are getting mounting systems from Germany which are not suitable for our tile types and I would like to see some informed proper guidelines around mounting of PV systems.

Also considering that this debate all started with a LABC document no one on here has considered that they want to consider overall dead load analysis which suggests that the modules and mounting weight is spread. Both me and my structural engineer agree that the report and analysis should be on point load which is where the weight will be distributed on the rafters or trusses. This indicates the type of fixing is of crucial importance. I have been sent M10 coach bolts for roof hooks regardless of size of timbers and have been told if I do not use them then it goes against the warranty:6: I am wading through Eurocodes and Building Regs trying to work out best practise and I would like to see some industry standard set in place. As far as I am concerned anyone that installs without a structural engineer report is a bloody fool.

 

[Worcester]

Spoke with Shueco (Shuco) at the segen conference today, they have promised to email details of how to install on both slate roofs and 35mm rafters.

In essence

Slate, they don't consider hanger bolts compliant, however they know that some installers ONLY use hanger bolts on EVERYTHING.

35mm, They have no solution, other than was told to add additional structural bracing to each rafter. No solution if loft converted.

I'll wait to see if the material arrives....

Overheard scary conversations of some people saying 'its only social housing so we'll use hanger bolts'

 

[solarsavings]

That must have been an interesting conversation.

They don't consider hanger bolts compliant with what?

I wonder what they mean by 'structural bracing' and if they would recommend the same approach with a trussed roof.


I went to price an installation on a 70s built house in Norfolk today (We wont be getting the job) with a fink truss roof. There was no bracing, no binders, no restraint straps. The trusses had been skew nails to the wallplates. And yet none of the previous installers that had been to price the install had said the roof required remedial wrok before they could have the system they installed. I was told in no uncertain terms that the house has stood for almost forty years, has a few cracks in the ceiling boards, don't they all? if it needed the work I said it needed why hadn't it collapsed by now?. Was he worried about complying wiht eurocode 5, were the other potential installers?

So while I disagree with much that worcester says about the codes and best practise today my eyes were opened wide to the fact that far too many installers know jack about roof structures than is good for this industry and a good many of them probably don't have the skills needed to do any remedial work needed.

How much of your installer training covered roof structure.

 

[Worcester]

my eyes were opened wide to the fact that far too many installers know jack about roof structures than is good for this industry and a good many of them probably don't have the skills needed to do any remedial work needed.

That has been my whole concern all along.

I have walked from many a job where I believed Solar PV was not the correct solution, though unfortunatley sometimes though basic greed (the customers as much as some installers) systems have subsequently been installed.

 

[IVEnergy]

Interesting.