burglar alarm

[trickyb]

Hi all Happy new year for a start! Now ive got to put a supply in a new build for a burgler alarm and me being new at the job was wondering does it come from the ring main or a separate MCB/RCBO. I sapose if its of the ring you know its being powerd . the alarm has battery back up

 

[monkeyelectric]

Hi all Happy new year for a start! Now ive got to put a supply in a new build for a burgler alarm and me being new at the job was wondering does it come from the ring main or a separate MCB/RCBO. I sapose if its of the ring you know its being powerd . the alarm has battery back up

Burglar alarm has to come from an unprotected way in the consumer otherwise if the rcd trips the bloody thing will go off

 

[m4tty]

Burglar alarm has to come from an unprotected way in the consumer otherwise if the rcd trips the bloody thing will go off

Hi Monkeyelectric totally agree but it would have to be surface mounted as if installed in wall would need rcd protection no? cheers

 

[oldtimer]

I used to run an alarm business so my advice is and the regs are that you must install a safe point of isolation that cannot be easly isolated ths translates to fitting a unswitched fuse spur with a 3 amp fuse fitted not with the 13 amp fuse it came with.As for the CU end well you can fit it on or off the rcd side but DO NOT connect cables across the main side of the CU isolator switch and before you say that cannot happen trust me if I had a pound each time a fool had done this because they thought the system could not be defeated if the intruder switched off the CU.(leaving a 1.5mm cable being protected by the main 80A or 100A fuse)

As for the alarm going off if the mains drop off well yes and no when you fit an alarm you should fit the biggest battery that will fit in the control panel. When you do this write the date on the battery as it will last for 5 years and depending on its size it will maintain the panel for 8-12 hours without mains power.After 5 year the battery will deteriate and wil last from a couple of hours to a couple of minutes. The majority of alarm faults is that if the battery is not replaced every 5 years hence when there is a power cut in a street the alarms will start to activate from 1 minute onwards the alarms that have a good battery fitted will last at least 8 hours why because that is the regulation. How do I know this because my alarm panel an Optima 2 + was fitted 21 years ago and is still working a treat.

 

[eskimo39]

Could you not just take a fused spur (3a) from the closest ring main?
The batteries installed would protect it from a powercut and you would always know if the circuit tripped.

If you put it on a dedicated circuit, I am sure you would still need RCD protection unless you use conduit all around your house, hence the battery back up. Most alarms we install have a battery in the control panel and also a battery in the bell box so intruders can't just turn the CU off.

 

[oldtimer]

Yes you can break into an existing ring but the norm is to wire it back to the CU and most of the time it is easier why because if you tripped the ring circuit you dropped the supply to the alarm panel.

Intruder alarms operate on 12vdc and fire is 24vdc the control panel doubles up as a battery charger the reason a battery is required is to protect the system from power dips and hence false alarms activations and where i live the police can charge you under the noise pollution act for wasting their time on systems that are not fitted or serviced to the current standards. Also yes the outside sounder has a SAB module fitted Self Activating Bell module and for the past 10 years approx the regulations require a Watchdog timer fitted on this so if the module does not get its supply from the mother board(control panel) then it will activate the sounder but then switch its self off after 20 minutes(this is the max regulation time an alarm can activate for)

Also another reason you should wire it as a dedicated supply alarm panels are essentialy a computer on a pcb card and putting on a circuit with other outlets ie sockets / lights this can cause false alarms via electrical interferance plus if you run the alarm cables beside mains cables you can induce AC voltage in the control panel.

 

[Golden_Boy]

Hi Monkeyelectric totally agree but it would have to be surface mounted as if installed in wall would need rcd protection no? cheers

"Burglar alarm has to come from an unprotected way in the consumer otherwise if the rcd trips the bloody thing will go off"

No it wont......There is a backup battery in ALL decent alarms that will keep things going for a few hours.. My Galaxy alarm system runs quite happily from a 3 amp fused spur, and has for 5 years.

 

[monkeyelectric]

"Burglar alarm has to come from an unprotected way in the consumer otherwise if the rcd trips the bloody thing will go off"

No it wont......There is a backup battery in ALL decent alarms that will keep things going for a few hours.. My Galaxy alarm system runs quite happily from a 3 amp fused spur, and has for 5 years.

Well my old neighbour had one and every time the power went out it went off! same goes for one of my customers so rcd trip would do the same, maybe new alarms are ifferent as this was about 8 years ago

 

[Des 56]

I used to run an alarm business so my advice is connect cables across the main side of the CU isolator switch.

Sorry just playing with words

 

[oldtimer]

Golden-Boy mind change your control panel battery and dispose of the old batery by running it down then drop it off at your local council refuse/reclaim centre. As I said when alarms activate on a power dip it is down to the battery not getting changed also if it is not replaced and left long enough it can take the panel with it so spend £20 now and save hundreds by not having to change the panel.


Des you will get me shot by playing with words but dont worry I see the funny side

 

[gez500]

A question:
If an intruder alarm panel is mounted directly next to the consumer unit and wired on a dedicated circuit, does this do away with the need for an unswitched fuse spur, as local isolation is provided via the mcb/rcbo?

Gez

 

[oldtimer]

Gez
The answer to this is no why ? because a burglar alarm is classed as a fixed appliance and requires a point of isolation.

 

[gez500]

Why doesn't the adjacent mcb/rcbo count as effective isolation?

Gez

 

[oldtimer]

I hear what you say but an mcb/fuse is a protective device and should not be used as an isolator. The regulations are quite specific you must fit a point of isolation ie fused outlet if you dont then you better have good PL insurance because I have seen on more than one occasion an alarm engineer who was not electrically trained switch off the CU via the main isolator disconnect the alarm panel "tape" the wires up the switch the CU back on because he was not going into a CU. I was called out to a job where a customer got an electric shock because she tried to move the "dangling cable" and the tape had slid off so fiting a point of isolation is a legal requirement because situations like this can and do arise and for the sake of a couple of pounds there is no excuse not to fit a fused spur.

Remember switching off a mcb and putting a bit of red tape on it will not deter joe public from removing it switching it back on. When it comes to "wheres there is blame there is a claim" mentality joe public is in the clear the "legally qualified person" should have either disconnected the cable or made it tamper proof by fitting a lockable device on the protective device.

Sorry to blab on a bit but at the end of the day safety is what it is all about.

 

[gez500]

No worries oldtimer, I understand what you are saying, and I've no problem in fitting a fuse spur, as the cost in time and materials is negligable. I just wondered, that's all.
What's to stop someone re fitting a fuse in the spur if you have removed it for isolation? What do you do if you are replacing a cracked socket front? Apart from going into the dis board and removing the cables from the fuse/mcb you can never really be sure a circuit if effectively isolated, unless the mcb's are of a lockable type of course.
Every other intruder alarm I've fitted has been remote from the dis board, so have fitted a fuse spur in that instance. Like I said, it was just something I thought about.
Thanks for your view though.

Regards, Gez

 

[oldtimer]

"Whats to stop someone from replacing the fuse in the spur"

Well yes take your point but this is where the definition in the law is a bit of tape across a mcb is not a barrier but having to use a screwdriver to unscrew or pull out the spurs fuse holder is seen a physical act and deterant so then Joe Public does not have an excuse because he or she could use a screwdriver to open a CU socket, light switch and so on when the law says they should know better.

Also one other point when I got into alarms 26 years ago the majority of burglar alarms were rented mostly by business or a household who could afford it. I was a time served spark but most of the guys I worked with were not sparks so hence why the dodgy mains supplies although now there is a spur fitted and the only problems now is there is a 13A fuse fitted. If you send me your email address I will dig out the check sheet I created to service an alarm system and if you need any more info drop me a mail.

 

[Guest123]

All my alarms get one of these little fella's now.

 

[Golden_Boy]

Golden-Boy mind change your control panel battery and dispose of the old batery by running it down then drop it off at your local council refuse/reclaim centre. As I said when alarms activate on a power dip it is down to the battery not getting changed also if it is not replaced and left long enough it can take the panel with it so spend £20 now and save hundreds by not having to change the panel.


Des you will get me shot by playing with words but dont worry I see the funny side

I replace the Batteries once every two years and have never had a false alarm in all the time its been installed. Its a Galaxy Alarm and incudes two powered RIO ( zone extension units wth own PSU and batteries ) So there is no lack of battery back up. As an extra belt and braces approach the extension units are powered from a different RCD. Alarm does work though as had unwelcome visitor in garage about 6 months ago...

 

[dragon-av]

As the Alarms are LVDC operated i dont see why the battery needs to be part of the panel it makes far more sense from what i have seen of alarms to mount the battery supply and main control panel well out of the way on a dedicated RCBO with local isolation. Rack the PSU and Backup in the secure location then run hidden LV to the panel?

 

[oldtimer]

Golden Boy changing the battery every 2 years ? well ok I was about to highlight that if you store a control in a warm area ie airing cupboard then this may shorten the lifespan from 5 years to 3.

Also a wee tip anybody reading this dont get yourself in a tizzy when it comes to alarm systems as long as you install it to the current regulations then thats fine if you try and outhink th crooks then you will end up sleeping in an armchair with a pump action shotgun waiting for someone to make your day.

I once had a customer who crawled yes crawled across the livingroom floor touched the video and then crawled back out the room to proof the pir could be beat and said theres a weakness their what are you going to do about it. I said ok try it again but this time pick the video up and take it with you !!!

Nuff said

 

[tckr_crlsn]

Talking security takes more than locking doors and windows when you leave home. There are lots of other things to consider like back and front yard, inside and outside lightning, alarms and safes.
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I hope it will be useful

 

[Katherine22]

When communicating with various alarm companies, in addition to praying for their certification, ask questions about their local and national licenses. Ask about pre-employment screening, which they used before hiring their employees. Once you've done that, then you can contact the necessary services and licensing agencies, and consumer applications such as the Better Business Bureau just to do more research on the companies you are considering. The main point here is just for verification.

kw Alarmanlage