Chemical Cupboard

[Midwest]

Not so much of an electrical question, moreover if anyone has any experience in swimming pools and dosing of chemicals.

Place I work out has a spa. It has a swimming pool and jacuzzi pool. It has chemical dosing pumps, which are closed in separate closed cupboards. It’s been open for about 3 years.

In the acid cupboard (hydrochloric acid), there’s a slight problem acid contamination. Both dosing pumps have packed up, and the associated conduits, cable tray have been ravaged by the acid, I believe. Not sure where the acid vapour or whatever you call it is escaping from, but it seems it’s attacking everything in the cupboard. The cupboard is ventilated. It’s come to a head, where the pumps have packed up & IP Masterseal socket, was leaking acid! I’ve attached pics. The previous socket had be glanded from the top. So I’ve replaced with a new one, and glanded from the bottom. Before anyone says anything, I have tried cable tying the swa to the cable tray, but the acid burns them off.

My question is, with experience of similar installs, would galvanised conduit & cable be suitable for such an environment? Also, again with previous experience have you known for these cupboards to be enclosed. Some present colleagues, suggest there just needs to be a wall between each chemical application, what installation methods have you seen?

 

[Dan]

Don't quote me but I think hydrochloric acid and cement mixed can make a clear vapour that can kill quicky.

A cleaner at a tiling training center tipped her mop water down the main drain where grout buckets had been cleaned and she passed out.

Took a few days for a fireman who got called in to quote the two chemicals they needed to completely avoid.

Ended up putting separate sinks all over the place to get insurance cover the centre.

The wall would need to be perspex of some sort.

Obviously pools can be tiled and grouted. Its the neat mix of both that was the issue.

(Again don't quote me I was merely a tile-stripper-offerer at the time and it might have been a case of Chinese whispers by the time I heard a day or so later)

Our plumbers might have a clue perhaps? I bet they've installed the gear before.

More common next year when our American and Australian members have been here a good few months we would have this answered in a few posts.

 

[drzsta]

Do not use Galv where acid vapours are present. PVC would be better.

The first priority would be to reduce/stop the release of acid though.

 

[Strima]

The acid vapour problem needs sorting first otherwise the problems will just persist.

 

[Dan]

Just had a quick search online and it seems to be concrete and hydrochloric acid. You can use it to clean concrete but it can be lethal without a mask. But can't see if it's just the acid alone or whether it is the mix of the two.

Either way, acid etching concrete is a thing (makes patterns) so if it can eat it away, no solid wall is going to work. Needs be plastic. As said above.

 

[GBDamo]

When working in the chemical game, 20 years +, we would chase HCl leaks by putting ammonia solution in a sqeezy bottle and puffing the vapour, not liquid, around joints.

A thick white cloud (ammonium hydrochloride) will form around areas that are leaking. Not really recommended without correct acid mask.

HCl gas is terrible for leaching through pipe that may not necessarily pass liquid.

Id be looking to do the following,

1, ensure the seals in the poly container lids are intact.
2, ensure all joints around the pumps and pipe work are sound.
3, replace all flexible pipe with a compatible material, google chemical compatibility.
4, the syphon pump should be flushed after every use and the flushings disposed of.
5, look to use more dilute acid and increase dose accordingly if possible.
6, HCl solutuon is HCl gas in water a max stable strength is around 37%. Gasses, unlike solids, are more soluble when cold so keeping the area cool will help keep vapours to a minimum.
7, regular cleaning of the external pipes and surfaces with dilute (5%) sodium carbonate solution will aid longevity.
8, Look to install ventilation.

If this is to keep a stable Ph then a different, none fuming acid may be viable but would need professional input.

I have experience of exacly this issue with a water deionisation plant that some bright spark though best to instal in a plant room along with all the switch gear. Everywhere was eventually slowly corroding. We followed the approach above to manage the situation but you'll never cure it.

Best of luck.

 

[BruvDunk]

Big arse extraction fan or two may help

 

[netblindpaul]

Stainless or plastic, but, you need to get them to address the problem first.
If they have leaks they are exposing their employees to chemicals, the exposure levels for people are normally a few orders of magnitude below that which would damage installed equipment, so they have a big issue there.

 

[BruvDunk]

Stainless or plastic, but, you need to get them to address the problem first.
If they have leaks they are exposing their employees to chemicals, the exposure levels for people are normally a few orders of magnitude below that which would damage installed equipment, so they have a big issue there.

As with most places they get around that part by having a cupboard with some PPE in.... and maybe sending some staff on some manual handling course

 

[netblindpaul]

As with most places they get around that part by having a cupboard with some PPE in.... and maybe sending some staff on some manual handling course

Trouble with that is PPE is the last in the acceptable hierarchy of control, it always fails to danger, & relies on process, procedure, information, training, instruction & supervision, none of which are infallible.
Thus, it isn’t an acceptable control measure unless others have been correctly implemented.

 

[Midwest]

Fear not chaps, the 'team' including me have been on a NVQ course for swimming pool management. We're aware of the dangers of handling chemicals, two doors down is the cupboard handling sodium hypochlorite, combing the two makes mustard gas apparently. PPE is available for team members.

The cupboards have ventilation. A company will be bought in to repair wherever the 'leak' is coming from.

The company that designed & installed the spa, are no longer seen as a reliable company. There is a co2 system, that would negate the use of hydrochloric acid, but its very expensive. We are awaiting quotations to replace the existing systems.

I am giving my boss my views on the existing installation, as I feel its incorrect. Colleagues from other sites, say they do not have individual closed vented cupboards for their dosing units. So I was wondering if thats correct?
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I would add, to put things into place, I’ve worked at this place for nearly a year. So I’ve been aware of the state of the cupboards, but only did the course this month, to realise the implications.

 

[netblindpaul]

Fear not chaps, the 'team' including me have been on a NVQ course for swimming pool management. We're aware of the dangers of handling chemicals, two doors down is the cupboard handling sodium hypochlorite, combing the two makes mustard gas apparently. PPE is available for team members.

The cupboards have ventilation. A company will be bought in to repair wherever the 'leak' is coming from.

The company that designed & installed the spa, are no longer seen as a reliable company. There is a co2 system, that would negate the use of hydrochloric acid, but its very expensive. We are awaiting quotations to replace the existing systems.

I am giving my boss my views on the existing installation, as I feel its incorrect. Colleagues from other sites, say they do not have individual closed vented cupboards for their dosing units. So I was wondering if thats correct?
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I would add, to put things into place, I’ve worked at this place for nearly a year. So I’ve been aware of the state of the cupboards, but only did the course this month, to realise the implications.

The cost of the CO2 system may be more palletable when you put the whole risk, maintenance etc scenario into context as a package, including the on-cost of controls PPE etc. and the residual hazards posed by HCl

 

[GBDamo]

Fear not chaps, the 'team' including me have been on a NVQ course for swimming pool management. We're aware of the dangers of handling chemicals, two doors down is the cupboard handling sodium hypochlorite, combing the two makes mustard gas apparently. PPE is available for team members.

You're NVQ tutor requires some chemistry lessons.

(2)HCl + NaOCl = NaCl + H20 + Cl2

So Hydrochloric acid + bleach = salt, water and Chlorine.

Chlorine is Yellow/Green and heavier than air so if you do see it go up not down.

Mustard gas is a whole world of hurt worse, both will kill you though.

 

[James]

Not all plastic is resistant to acid.
PVC is not

If I remember right, polypropylene is acid resistant.
Gallv conduit is no good, but polypropylene flexible conduit and fittings would work out well.
Call Flexicon on 01675 466 900
They will guide you with the best product for cable protection.

 

[Midwest]

The cost of the CO2 system may be more palletable when you put the whole risk, maintenance etc scenario into context as a package, including the on-cost of controls PPE etc. and the residual hazards posed by HCl

We would prefer the co2 system, but that ain’t gonna happen. That said the system we currently have, is used predominantly, I’m led to believe.
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You're NVQ tutor requires some chemistry lessons.

(2)HCl + NaOCl = NaCl + H20 + Cl2

So Hydrochloric acid + bleach = salt, water and Chlorine.

Chlorine is Yellow/Green and heavier than air so if you do see it go up not down.

Mustard gas is a whole world of hurt worse, both will kill you though.

Wasn’t the tutor; whatever the gas is, I know I don’t want to breath it in.