Cooker switch with 13A socket without RCD

[house]

I understand under the latest regs an integrated cooker switch / 13A socket needs to be on the RCD protected side of the consumer unit.

My question is hopefully a simple one - was it ever permissable for the this switch to be connected on the unprotected side of the consumer unit?

Thanks very much!

 

[Guest123]

Hi.

Under the 16th edition, yes.

It was RCD protection only for "socket outlets likely to supply equipment outdoors"

 

[Mac]

When i done my 17th my tutor said that cooker points don't need to be RCD protected.If it has a socket on it and you can plug anything into it,shouldn't it be RCD protected?Possibly up to the individual at the end of the day

 

[Guest123]

You should also consider the cable supplying the cooker point now.

It seems we can no longer sneeze without an RCD to protect us.

 

[Mac]

You should also consider the cable supplying the cooker point now.

It seems we can no longer sneeze without an RCD to protect us.

Agree.17th ed boards say it all.Everything RCD protected today.Better to be safe than sorry

 

[house]

Thanks for speedy replies!

So for an existing 16th edition installation there is nothing wrong with having the combined oven switch and 13A socket supplied in this way.....

 

[Guest123]

Nope.

But the 17th is a whole different ball game.

 

[COLLY]

Thing about the 17 you will be called out everytime a bulb blows to reset rcbos how do you charge for that and what about 3 phase should it not be protected more than it is

 

[xraytek]

Thing about the 17 you will be called out everytime a bulb blows to reset rcbos how do you charge for that and what about 3 phase should it not be protected more than it is

Hi Colly,
The reason 17th boards have all circuits RCD protected is mainly due to 522.6.7
Unlike commercial/industrial installations homes are considered as not being under supervision of a skilled person. As you cannot confirm cable depth in walls then RCD,s are now required in domestic installations.
Under 17th all socket outlets need to be RCD protected whereas 16th only required it when supplying equipment outdoors.
411.3.3 does give exceptions to installations under skilled supervision although it doesnt allow exceptions for sockets supplying equipment outdoors.
Hope that makes sense.
Regards

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Hi Colly,
The reason 17th boards have all circuits RCD protected is mainly due to 522.6.7
Unlike commercial/industrial installations homes are considered as not being under supervision of a skilled person. As you cannot confirm cable depth in walls then RCD,s are now required in domestic installations.
Under 17th all socket outlets need to be RCD protected whereas 16th only required it when supplying equipment outdoors.
411.3.3 does give exceptions to installations under skilled supervision although it doesnt allow exceptions for sockets supplying equipment outdoors.
Hope that makes sense.
Regards

Found that bit of the regs a bit funny.......how do you prove your customer is a skilled person, give them a pre-installation 20 question tick test?????

 

[michaelw6]

At the end of the day my motto is if in doupt put an rcbo on it.
Like its been said the 17th edition is all about rcd protection you just need some diversity.
I would put a cooker point with a socket on it on an rcd 1 because its a socket and two because its down stairs and can be used outside with a lead.
Just Cover your back mate you should be ok.
Good luck.

 

[colinhills]

have to go with the safety side of things and going with the regs and rcd the circuit

 

[scotsparky]

does that mean any spark here does not need RCDs in there house as they are skilled persons. There fammily would be Instructed persons.

 

[Guest123]

Guys, this chap isn't doing any electrical work all he asked was if under the 16th ed a CCU with socket outlet needed RCD protection.

 

[Moog]

Why not just put a "not for general use" sticker on the socket outlet and plug the fridge into it, making the circuit 17th compliant. see 411.3.3 exception b

 

[electro]

Why not just put a "not for general use" sticker on the socket outlet and plug the fridge into it, making the circuit 17th compliant. see 411.3.3 exception b

hi

am i correct in saying even if you put "not for general use" and the installation cable is less than 50mm it still needs an RCD?

i think you have to comply with the installtion method and the notice? not just the notice..

regards

 

[Guest123]

hi

am i correct in saying even if you put "not for general use" and the installation cable is less than 50mm it still needs an RCD?

i think you have to comply with the installtion method and the notice? not just the notice..

regards

Indeed.

 

[electro]

I had to check i keep hearing just stick a notice on for fridge ect use and you dont need an rcd, as i have said the danger of hitting the cable in the wall is still there..

thanks Lenny

 

[Moog]

hi

am i correct in saying even if you put "not for general use" and the installation cable is less than 50mm it still needs an RCD?

i think you have to comply with the installtion method and the notice? not just the notice..

regards

Interesting whats the reg do you mean 522.6.7?
What if it is a <20A cooker feed complying with 522.6.6 i,ii,iii,iv,v ?

 

[skirby]

My view is that in domestic installations: All sockets outlets require rcd protection. All cables less than 50mm deep require rcd protection. A dedicated and labelled socket outlet can be exempt but NOT if fed by a cable buried less than 50mm deep. In domestic installations I see no problem with using rcds & rcbos on everything. Nuisance tripping is rarely a problem.

 

[MTI]

it also has to meet 0.4 disconnectiion time if it has socket outlet

 

[electro]

it also has to meet 0.4 disconnectiion time if it has socket outlet

Hi
A cooker point with a socket outlet does not necessarily have to have a 0.4 disconnection time, on a 40amp breaker it will have a disconnection time of 5sec on overcurrent.

Regards

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I was told without the socket, it was 5s and with a socket, it was reduced to 0.4s due to changing the characteristics of the circiut, always willing to learn the indepth reasoning.

 

[flukey]

I was told without the socket, it was 5s and with a socket, it was reduced to 0.4s due to changing the characteristics of the circiut, always willing to learn the indepth reasoning.

i was with you graeme where does it state that electro for future reference

 

[scotsparky]

electro you can get a 40acb to disconnect in .4 no real problems as there is a Socket you have to worst case is a Type d which is .23 ohms as max Zs in a house that should be no problem unless there is a high ZE

 

[electro]

Hi Graeme Harrold, Flukey

Reg 411.3.2.3 states maximum of 5 seconds and as it exceeds the 32amp threshold of reg 411.3.2.2 . It got me at first as the 16th stated if it had a socket outlet it down rated it to 0.4 sec. It’s the same for shower circuits they are 5 sec as well. A 30mA RCD is required as additional protection on both of these circuits and this should disconnect during an earth fault within 40mS.
I think its good for new sparks stating on the 17th as us older sparks still have the 16th imprinted in our brains and it is hard to let go and think European regs AKA 17th…
Regards

 

[dkent5]

Only factories and such that have 24 hour cover can reasonably be considered to have skilled supervision. We all leave our homes in the morning and our supervision is not there. The 50mm rule should be applied in all cases where there may be ambiguity.You are still allowed not to RCD a particular circuit if it can be deemed for a specific purpose and identified so. A fridgefreezer socket outlet would be a good example.
Bearing in mind that this circuit would not be used by ordinary persons.

 

[flukey]

Hi Graeme Harrold, Flukey

Reg 411.3.2.3 states maximum of 5 seconds and as it exceeds the 32amp threshold of reg 411.3.2.2 . It got me at first as the 16th stated if it had a socket outlet it down rated it to 0.4 sec. It’s the same for shower circuits they are 5 sec as well. A 30mA RCD is required as additional protection on both of these circuits and this should disconnect during an earth fault within 40mS.
I think its good for new sparks stating on the 17th as us older sparks still have the 16th imprinted in our brains and it is hard to let go and think European regs AKA 17th…
Regards

hi electro,
when i did my 17th we were told all ground floor sockets had to disconnect in 0.4 and if you swapped a cooker plate for a cooker plate with a socket then the time dropped from 5s to 0.4s

 

[electro]

Hi Flukey
I was told the same so I contacted the electrical safety council, because my head was telling me 0.4 and the lectures at college were telling me 0.4, but when I read the book it was telling me 5 sec.
Regards

 

[flukey]

Hi Flukey
I was told the same so I contacted the electrical safety council, because my head was telling me 0.4 and the lectures at college were telling me 0.4, but when I read the book it was telling me 5 sec.
Regards

i will dig out my course notes to see if i have details of this.
i know what the regs say but they also say any socket liable to supply equipment blah blah and surely this socket falls into that category

 

[michaelw6]

Like its been said i understand that if it is a fixed appliance (dedicated) eg cooker its 5 seconds and does not need an rcd.
BUT... As it has a socket on it i would class this not as a dedicated circuit then because anything can be pluged into it and thus being 0.4s and rcd.
If its your job or somebody elses your enquireing about change the cooker front to just a switch then your covered under 16th edition.
Mike