Dam those hidden junction boxes

O

Octopus

Been out to a call out this afternoon to a house with most of their downstairs lights not working. Owners say they "failed" at the same time that a bulb blew.

So I've looked at each lighting point in turn and my conclusion is that above, (or there abouts) each and every light, is a hidden junction box ..... Why oh why, do people think they can have junction boxes "sealed" in the space between the ceiling and the floorboards above!!

Just to top off the day, I found that most of the circuits weren't labelled, both of the lighting circuits had 2 cables connected and the neutrals didn't match the MCBs in any way, now did any of the new circuits added when an extension was done about 3 years ago have ANY labelling.

Plus I had to go back later as they discovered their heating wasn't working and it turned out that the heating controller (which is upstairs) is spurred off the the offending downstairs lighting circuit AND the real pain is that the plumber has fitted the new tank almost directly in front of the fused spur for the c/heating controller. Mindful they have a young child they now have c/heating operating courtesy of an extension lead and a plug!

Going back Monday to lift carpets and boards!!

Rant over!!
 
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i see you`l have a bit on then Murdoch.....mind you.....cant be as bad as the "joint box house" we were at a while ago.....about 20-30 odd of the chuffin things there.....and in inacessable places n all.....dont know why they do it and as for not clearly labeling/identifying circuits.....well theres no excuse for that one really....just slack innit.....
 
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Such a terrible way to wire to a big JB and leaving it in the Ceiling.

We went to a job up in Kensington that the previous contractors had been kicked off of. Was a bunch of Russian's and the spark's was known as Igor.

Anyway, we looked at their work, looked reasonably neat. Looked at the lighting and it was a complete shambles. He didn't have a fixed way of wiring it. Some was to the rose and some was to the switch so it was a nightmare trying to find out how he had done it. Anyway after seeing there was only one cable at each wall light we investigated and found a massive set of cables were he was going to make all his joins above the bathroom ceiling, he done this three times for each room. Say in 20 years time something went wrong how on earth are you ever going to find the other end to find the problem. That's why I argue to the death the best way is to take everything to the switch.
 
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Worst 1 I ever saw for junction boxes was a big house on the coast, all lights both up / down wired to junction boxes mounted in the attic. Total of 16 JB's all 6T 20a & most with 2 lights / switches through them & nothing marked. must have wasted a fortune on cable & belive me a total nightmare to fault find on.
 
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well that "joint box house" as we have christened it....it wasn`t just the lighting........every final in that place was loaded up with joint boxes...some with covers on...others without.........one of the best ones we saw was this place where the guy had jointed onto vir......and just gone from point to point....tocreate the illusion of a ring.....no earth at any of the points on it..lolffs......
 
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Specialist said:
Worst 1 I ever saw for junction boxes was a big house on the coast, all lights both up / down wired to junction boxes mounted in the attic. Total of 16 JB's all 6T 20a & most with 2 lights / switches through them & nothing marked. must have wasted a fortune on cable & belive me a total nightmare to fault find on.
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My mums house is like that, on Monday I've got to hit the loft to get the Christmas tree so will have a proper count up

As i'm nearly qualified (actually am for Part P but going for JIB gold card first) she's after free work and i'm doing my best to avoid it as she lives in a huge 1920's house (nearly 3000 sq ft), which still has the original lathe and plaster walls and ceilings with original dado/picture rails and coving, full of wall lights, surface mounted boxes, spurs after spurs after spurs, outside lights run of the spurred, spurs etc etc ...All run off a 4 way CU with a 63a RCD as main switch running the lot (its actually a 5 but one of them is for the garage CU which is right next to the main CU in the garage?!)
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
My mums house is like that, on Monday I've got to hit the loft to get the Christmas tree so will have a proper count up

As i'm nearly qualified (actually am for Part P but going for JIB gold card first) she's after free work and i'm doing my best to avoid it as she lives in a huge 1920's house (nearly 3000 sq ft), which still has the original lathe and plaster walls and ceilings with original dado/picture rails and coving, full of wall lights, surface mounted boxes, spurs after spurs after spurs, outside lights run of the spurred, spurs etc etc ...All run off a 4 way CU with a 63a RCD as main switch running the lot (its actually a 5 but one of them is for the garage CU which is right next to the main CU in the garage?!)
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Go on & sort it out for her, thats proper Electrics that is :tounge_smile:
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
well that "joint box house" as we have christened it....it wasn`t just the lighting........every final in that place was loaded up with joint boxes...some with covers on...others without.........one of the best ones we saw was this place where the guy had jointed onto vir......and just gone from point to point....tocreate the illusion of a ring.....no earth at any of the points on it..lolffs......
Click to expand...

Earths ? what you want those things for ? everything still works without them:D
Was told by an old Brewery sparky I worked with years ago that Manufacturers only put Earths in cables so they can charge you more money.
 
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Specialist said:
Go on & sort it out for her, thats proper Electrics that is :tounge_smile:
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I'd love to as she's getting old and the CU is at the front of the garage about 8ft up in the air. But, i'm of the view that if it works and its within limits leave it be.

At most i'll change the board to a full RCBO job and try to get it into the house (which due to the layout/existing cable runs isn't going to happen) or at the back of the garage and split the circuits as best possible. But that is about it
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
I'd love to as she's getting old and the CU is at the front of the garage about 8ft up in the air. But, i'm of the view that if it works and its within limits leave it be.

At most i'll change the board to a full RCBO job and try to get it into the house (which due to the layout/existing cable runs isn't going to happen) or at the back of the garage and split the circuits as best possible. But that is about it
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A Gold Card JIB holder would be able to sort that little lot out for his mum, ...No Trouble!! lol!!!
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
I'd love to as she's getting old and the CU is at the front of the garage about 8ft up in the air. But, i'm of the view that if it works and its within limits leave it be.

At most i'll change the board to a full RCBO job and try to get it into the house (which due to the layout/existing cable runs isn't going to happen) or at the back of the garage and split the circuits as best possible. But that is about it
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Was only having a joke with you mate, if your mum is getting on then the best thing you can do for her is to make it as safe as possible & hopefully make the CU accessible.
 
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Engineer54 said:
A Gold Card JIB holder would be able to sort that little lot out for his mum, ...No Trouble!! lol!!!
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Any suggestions on how to rip up oak floors, bypass wallpaper at £50 a roll, original dado/picture rail and coving, without disturbing lathe and plaster which has the weight of concrete blocks i'd be grateful ;o)

Specialist I know you are, if I was an another way inclined i'd be on here telling the forum about how it's all a code 1 as it doesn't comply with 17th ;o)
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
Any suggestions on how to rip up oak floors, bypass wallpaper at £50 a roll, original dado/picture rail and coving, without disturbing lathe and plaster which has the weight of concrete blocks i'd be grateful ;o)

Specialist I know you are, if I was an another way inclined i'd be on here telling the forum about how it's all a code 1 as it doesn't comply with 17th ;o)
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The Dado / Coving is'nt the hard bit, but the 50 quid a roll wallpaper ? don't think i'd want to be responsible for messing that up either:D at the end of the day mate, you don't have to upgrade it to the 17th as long as it's safe & fit for purpose. There's 1000's of properties out there that are not up to 17th but still safe. All you can do is your best for your mum.
 
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Specialist said:
The Dado / Coving is'nt the hard bit, but the 50 quid a roll wallpaper ? don't think i'd want to be responsible for messing that up either:D at the end of the day mate, you don't have to upgrade it to the 17th as long as it's safe & fit for purpose. There's 1000's of properties out there that are not up to 17th but still safe. All you can do is your best for your mum.
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Cheers, I know all about the 17th bit as my tutor hammered it home for my 2330 lvl3 practical (3 people failed for giving a code 1 for not to 17th standards).

But that's all for another thread as I've got a bit of a rant lined up about general standards/requirements for Part P etc etc..
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
Cheers, I know all about the 17th bit as my tutor hammered it home for my 2330 lvl3 practical (3 people failed for giving a code 1 for not to 17th standards).

But that's all for another thread as I've got a bit of a rant lined up about general standards/requirements for Part P etc etc..
Click to expand...

No probs mate, good luck with it & if you want to bounce some ideas off of someone then just let me know. As for Part P, it's too late at night for starting me off on that 1 Lol.
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
well that "joint box house" as we have christened it....it wasn`t just the lighting........every final in that place was loaded up with joint boxes...some with covers on...others without.........one of the best ones we saw was this place where the guy had jointed onto vir......and just gone from point to point....tocreate the illusion of a ring.....no earth at any of the points on it..lolffs......
Click to expand...

That's exactly how the first house I bought was done !!

When I viewed it, I was told it had been rewired & was shown a nice new CU in a cupboard under the stairs with nice new bits of T&E running from it up into the ceiling void.

I was shown nice new 13A sockets on the walls, & nice new ceiling roses on the ceilings, so I bought it.

When I moved in, one of the rooms had 2 cores - one black & the other green sticking through the ceiling where a light should be. On further investigation, I found this to be a lump of 3 core rubber flex with the red core cut off.

Even further investigation revealed this to be twisted onto the ends of some well shot VIR which in turn was twisted onto the ends of the nice new T&E that I had been shown. The twisted joints were insulated with that old fashioned cloth / tar sort of tape that doesn't appear to be used nowadays - thankfully.

The same applied to the new sockets - none of which were earthed.

That was back in 1975 & was my very first complete rewiring job !!
 
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We took over a job a few years back, where the first bloke had been kicked off. What he had done, beleive it or not, was just left tails in the wall. So for example for a two way light switch he had just left a meter or so of three core above the drop, which he planned to put a junction box on AFTER everything had been skimmed. Night mare!! That was for every single drop in a pretty high spec extention!
 
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Update on my Mum's electrics, opened the hatch and was showered with a load of thick black dust, climbed into the loft after coughing my guts up/recovering vision to discover all the roof lining (what ever it was used in the 30's) has disintegrated leaving a thick black layer of crap over everything

So i didn't even bother (have the inclination) to locate the junction boxes etc. So you'll all be pleased to hear her £50 wallpaper is safe for now

On another note had my first "call out" today to my Dad's house as his lights have been tripping intermittently for the last couple of weeks, got there and everything was on so asked him what works he had done recently (reading the forums for that thumbsup) to which he replied new down lights in kitchen and extractor, so tested the board all fine, so linked out the light circuit and went testing had continuity (180ohms on l/e) but couldn't trace the fault.

By this time it was getting dark so put the line back into the mcb switched on and main switch tripped, main switch back on tried a different sequence ring main tripped the main switch (old wylex dial type rcd) :confused:, main switch on another different sequence on for a bit boiler mcb trips the rcd

So try to test the ring mains (4 different circuits on the ground floor, i don't have a wander lead and everything trips in seconds), find four inch screws in the socket cover pull the socket and it moves about a centimetre due to **** cabelling, great, so bin that idea

By this point its dark I've discovered my nephew has knackered my 5 function 900 lumens torch (its cool for kids flashes/pulses etc etc), I've knackered the bulb on my maglite switching it from standing to putting the top cover on :madass: so I'm left with a poxy 1aaa torch that he has in the house. So thought i'd check the forums or internet search at which point I remembered he lives in the middle of the countryside and there's no phone signal nor can I get wifi as his electric keeps tripping :D

Drive down the road and phone a friend (qualified spark) to describe the fault (should also mention functional test doesn't work on the RCD) and we come to agreement that the RCD may be kaput, manage to get hold of his friend who did the down lights (qualified spark) who described the electrics as a mess and how the down lights took forever to do due the general state of the electrics and he thinks it may be the rcd as well or my dad hasn't fessed up to something

Go back and try the extremes again, find a dual dimmer switch behind a curtain and get from my Dad oh yeh I changed that when I moved in took me ages to do as I couldn't remember how the wires went in, open switch pull the cables and the common from the bottom to top of switch is connected by a single strand and the screw has been battered :) strip an re terminate,switch on main switch flick on MCB's and it stays on

Was a bit hairy at moments (when I nearly told him to book into a hotel till I got a new CU) but enjoyed it and learnt a lot of lessons. Am still trying to work out in my head the sequence/readings as I know I had it right in the area the fault was in, just didn't see the dimmer switch
 
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Update on my job!!!

Lifted the carpet and some boards on the landing - found 1 x broken junction box and 1 x choc block wrapped in a lot of tape. The 2 way cabling running up the original metal conduit - 1 cable have its 3 cores running seperately, no earth, no outer cover!

At least I located the feed and its the original 1950 2 core running from the CU via a couple of other points. Still nothing conclusive - next step will be to lift the carpet and boards in the bedroom. Happy days
 
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Just wondering if there are any products on the market that are 'approved' or suitable of join and forget, so these issues do not arise. Thanks, Mark
 
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Murdoch said:
Been out to a call out this afternoon to a house with most of their downstairs lights not working. Owners say they "failed" at the same time that a bulb blew.

So I've looked at each lighting point in turn and my conclusion is that above, (or there abouts) each and every light, is a hidden junction box ..... Why oh why, do people think they can have junction boxes "sealed" in the space between the ceiling and the floorboards above!!

Just to top off the day, I found that most of the circuits weren't labelled, both of the lighting circuits had 2 cables connected and the neutrals didn't match the MCBs in any way, now did any of the new circuits added when an extension was done about 3 years ago have ANY labelling.

Plus I had to go back later as they discovered their heating wasn't working and it turned out that the heating controller (which is upstairs) is spurred off the the offending downstairs lighting circuit AND the real pain is that the plumber has fitted the new tank almost directly in front of the fused spur for the c/heating controller. Mindful they have a young child they now have c/heating operating courtesy of an extension lead and a plug!

Going back Monday to lift carpets and boards!!

Rant over!!
Click to expand...
yeah...well for a start the s`1oh it all failed when a lamp went` is complete baba...
 
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fuzzydunlop said:
Cheers, I know all about the 17th bit as my tutor hammered it home for my 2330 lvl3 practical (3 people failed for giving a code 1 for not to 17th standards).

But that's all for another thread as I've got a bit of a rant lined up about general standards/requirements for Part P etc etc..
Click to expand...
but not the guy your callin here fuzzy....get a grip rite now.....or i``l come after you in here.....
 
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Dam those hidden junction boxes
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