Day 2: Solar and Wind for Domestic Properties - is it worth doing either?

[Dan]

I apologise for doing my day 2 late on in the bloody day again. I'll do my day 3 tonight. My daughter had her mate stop over so they were partying till 3 so I couldn't sleep until they were lol - now my sleep has been knocked out of whack. So I'll do my day 3 after midnight I think.

Anyway my day 2 subject is...

Solar Panels and Wind Turbine in a Domestic property; is it worth the installation costs these days?​

I know when solar was being installed on roofs across the country, often on OAP bungalows and the likes, that Solarplicity and whoever has bought them out, are still sending bills to an 81year old man I look after in my spare time. (From when me and Lou were doing chemist runs for vulnerable during lock down)

He's getting a 10k bill for the solar. Although it's a council property and they're meant to cover it. And they reap the rewards when they're earning.

Maybe that's a different thread.

But that aside; if people had the room for enough panels to cover their own use, and even a small propela (don't think they're an actual Turbine when they're small are they?) can you still gain a benefit to cover installation costs, and then cover your energy so you're not drawing so much from the grid, these days - or does the installation costs and equipment costs hardly get covered by the energy harvested by the stuff?

Discuss.

 

[Steve-S]

Solar panels are generally worth it - prices have plummeted. Wind for a house? Usually not and all sorts of complications.

Solar with home battery storage, and when on a cheap overnight rate to charge the batteries in low solar periods is generally worth it. But it depends on your usage. One person in a small place?

Also is cheaper per kWH gas or oil still being used to heat the space and DHW? Then the likes of an iBoost using a preheat DHW cylinder to ensure no export of solar electricity back to the grid.

Then EV charging need to be taken into account as we will all be driving them whether we want to or not.

Usage, type of property, supplementary energy available, EV charging etc. Many variables. But generally solar yes, wind no.

 

[7029 dave]

No fit tariff is payed to new commers the scheme finished in 2019 I believe.

 

[Steve-S]

No fit tariff is payed to new commers the scheme finished in 2019 I believe.

Some EV chargers have their own functionality to decide when to charge. The elec supplier Octopus have a tariff with big cost reductions at 1am to 6am, so people with EVs manage that and charge their cars overnight on the lower rate, a bit similar to how economy 7 used to be. With Octopus, mains elec charge rate is 25p per kwh, when at night it changes to 5p per kwh (equiv to gas prices).

Not sure if that only applies to EV charging, if general use then charging batteries overnight gives the equiv to gas charges. So worth it in winter months. In the other three season the solar should top up the batteries somewhat free, if not all for free. So only the the overall annual bills matter, not seasonal.

 

[Dan]

Yeah my mate has that night tarrif for his tesla. His whole house rate drops to that so he does his washing and stuff on a timer too to come on at 1:10am.

 

[Steve-S]

Yeah my mate has that night tarrif for his tesla. His whole house rate drops to that so he does his washing and stuff on a timer too to come on at 1:10am.

So charge up, or top up, the home battery at night while charging the car cheaply. But when you enough free solar you need to use that to heat DHW and charge the car. So a priority arrangement needs to be in place.

 

[Dan]

Ahhh different friends.

If my old 82year old mate had a go of my other mates tesla I think his skin would just peel off lol

He's been on blood thinners for 40 years and his skin is like an old paper bag you get sweets in. He only needs knock it and a bruise turns into a blood bag on his arm or whatever.

I'll get a pic of all the bills the various companies who keep buying the debt of the original Solarplicity charges. He's got a pile of them. And I bet even with heating on full chat on a summers day He's only using £3 energy a day, it's basically a room a kitchen and a bedroom. 3 rads.

Somehow even with the solar panels he's racking up ridiculous charges. It was a proper government backed scam. We all saw it coming on here I think lol

 

[Steve-S]

Here is one I did, still under installation. Solar panel with a DHW only, preheat only, thermal store. Mains water comes into the thermal store's coil, then heated via solar only stored hot water, then into the inlet of a high efficiency Intergas Xclusive gas combi (quality kit built like a tank) with weather compensation. The combi only tops up the DHW temp using far less gas than usual. Stored water is 85C max with hot water blending down to 56C into the combi. When the thermal store DHW outlet temp is above 56C the combi does not cut in at all as hot water run straight through it to the taps. Informed that in this year zero gas been used in the house since April, all DHW from solar with energy stored in the thermal store. Even on cloudless days in mid-winter the thermal store heats up to max temp. Gas heats the home.

iBoost used to stop export of solar elec back to the grid. The gas and elec bill have dropped substantially. Next stage when finances are available and an EV bought, is to fit a home battery using cheaper overnight electricity.

New Fusebox CU fitted at lower accessible height with SPD and double pole RCBOs on all circuits. A monitoring device is fitted, as can be seen lower left, temporarily used to see how it performed.

 

[woodster92]

I apologise for doing my day 2 late on in the bloody day again. I'll do my day 3 tonight. My daughter had her mate stop over so they were partying till 3 so I couldn't sleep until they were lol - now my sleep has been knocked out of whack. So I'll do my day 3 after midnight I think.

Anyway my day 2 subject is...

Solar Panels and Wind Turbine in a Domestic property; is it worth the installation costs these days?​

I know when solar was being installed on roofs across the country, often on OAP bungalows and the likes, that Solarplicity and whoever has bought them out, are still sending bills to an 81year old man I look after in my spare time. (From when me and Lou were doing chemist runs for vulnerable during lock down)

He's getting a 10k bill for the solar. Although it's a council property and they're meant to cover it. And they reap the rewards when they're earning.

Maybe that's a different thread.

But that aside; if people had the room for enough panels to cover their own use, and even a small propela (don't think they're an actual Turbine when they're small are they?) can you still gain a benefit to cover installation costs, and then cover your energy so you're not drawing so much from the grid, these days - or does the installation costs and equipment costs hardly get covered by the energy harvested by the stuff?

Discuss.

It has been over 12 years since a Feed In Tarif (FIT) subsidy was first provided by the government in the UK. In 2011 there were 203,129 registered solar PV installations that benefitted from a 43.3p per kWh payment. The following year the number of installations dropped by 90% as the subsidy was almost halved. The FIT scheme closed in April 2019.

Fast forward to 2024: there have been no new government FITs but it is still possible to save a small fortune and its not all about what you can export - that tends to be the least significant area of saving at the moment with some tariffs offering around 15p per kWh for export.

The simplest way to look at this is to consider what percentage of your existing electricity bill could be saved.
A Solar Only system might save in the region of 50% (+/- 15%) and installed cost for a modest system could start from around £5,000. Best quality solar panels are available for <£100 each now - the price has dropped off the cliff.
Add a well balanced battery to that and it might creep up around 75% (+/- 10%) but add around £1,000 for a modest battery and much more if you wanted larger batteries.

If you pay £50 a month for electricity, it would take longer to get a payback than if your bill is more like £200 a month!

Another interesting variable nowadays is the tariff you are on or have access to. Here's a couple of interesting use cases:

(1) We have customers with battery storage only (no solar at all) who have a payback period <5 years. They buy electricity cheaply overnight to charge up batteries and then power their home during the day from stored energy to avoid / vastly reduce pulling from the grid when it costs more. They only have access to this tariff because they have an EV. Old Economy 7 / 10 tariffs can offer similar savings.

(2) We have customers on a tariff which follows market rates and an automated system to control when the battery charges/discharges so it charges when cheap and sells when its financially more lucrative to do so. During stormy weather in the UK, it is possible to get paid (albeit a very small amount in pennies) to use electricity but the trick is to automate that and there are systems available that are designed to do that.

I predict that the cost of solar has bottomed out for now as the tech gets ready to produce a new wave whereas the cost of battery storage looks set (hopefully) to go down.

There's more information on our website (is it Ok to post this?) : voltswaggon.co.uk

 

[Steve-S]

Woodster92, nice post.
The problem with tariffs they can always be adjusted or removed, rendering all this equipment you have paid for near useless. Using all the solar energy created, or storing for later use, it is the best fist line of attack. Keep the utility companies at bay.

 

[7029 dave]

Here is one I did, still under installation. Solar panel with a DHW only, preheat only, thermal store. Mains water comes into the thermal store's coil, then heated via solar only stored hot water, then into the inlet of a high efficiency Intergas Xclusive gas combi (quality kit built like a tank) with weather compensation. The combi only tops up the DHW temp using far less gas than usual. Stored water is 85C max with hot water blending down to 56C into the combi. When the thermal store DHW outlet temp is above 56C the combi does not cut in at all as hot water run straight through it to the taps. Informed that in this year zero gas been used in the house since April, all DHW from solar with energy stored in the thermal store. Even on cloudless days in mid-winter the thermal store heats up to max temp. Gas heats the home.

iBoost used to stop export of solar elec back to the grid. The gas and elec bill have dropped substantially. Next stage when finances are available and an EV bought, is to fit a home battery using cheaper overnight electricity.

New Fusebox CU fitted at lower accessible height with SPD and double pole RCBOs on all circuits. A monitoring device is fitted, as can be seen lower left, temporarily used to see how it performed.

View attachment 117734

Stored water tanks, back up IH etc, I thought we were doing away with this system, no point having a combi boiler seems a waste might as well go back to the S or Y plan systems talk about full circle.

 

[littlespark]

youll never get a car in through the garage door with that great big tank in the way....

ive got to agree that charging batterys with free power off the roof is way much better than the charge at night/ use during the day scenario.... for that very reason that youre still paying for electricity... and the price keeps going up.

 

[brianmoooore]

I've always advised my customers against combi boilers, and have only ever fitted a handful where the customer insisted.

 

[James]

There is not a 1 solution fits all customers thing happening here.

don't kid yourself that solar energy is free.
you invest a fair bit of money into it and this equipment has a limited life before it will need replacing or regularly repairing.

Granted that in all likelihood you would be unlucky to have to repair or replace anything in the first 10 years but you do have to factor in the fact that if you spend 10K on solar panels and equipment to run it then for the first decade the electricity that it produces costs you £1000 per year and after that it is indeed free.

For someone who has an average day usage and very little night time usage, the savings can be Big.
for working families who use most of their power at night, the payback from feeding in will not cover the evening and night time use.

Battery storage is a good idea and the payback when incorporated with a low night rate can be a big saver if the usage pattern is right. if you have a big enough battery to cover your daytime use then all your power is bought at around 7p to 8p

however be cautious with the sales people because it is not unheard of for them to sell solar to you showing how much you can save and then on top of that, sell battery storage showing how much it can save on top of that.

if your usage profile suits it then great but for many, they will fail to mention that the solar generated in the day doesn't offset buying power at say 30p per unit and the spare going into your battery but in fact just offsets the amount you will have to charge overnight and therefore is offsetting power you would have to buy at night at say 7p.

at 7p per kwh it is hard to break even with a solar system unless it lasts for 15 to 20 years with no issues.

I am not anti solar or anti battery storage, they are both great but it is so important to get the right solution for what your household power needs are. if you don't, then the only person making money out of it is the guy that sold it to you.

 

[brianmoooore]

don't kid yourself that solar energy is free.

Looks like it's going to be for me. ECO4 flex stuff has all been approved, and an asbestos survey done earlier today.

 

[nicebutdim]

Need to start using more electricity in this house so I can save enough to justify the investment in solar.

 

[Steve-S]

Stored water tanks, back up IH etc, I thought we were doing away with this system, no point having a combi boiler seems a waste might as well go back to the S or Y plan systems talk about full circle.

Read again what the system was. It was well explained, and understand it.

 

[Steve-S]

youll never get a car in through the garage door with that great big tank in the way....

Do you know a garage that has a car in it? Take a photo if you see one.

 

[Steve-S]

There is not a 1 solution fits all customers thing happening here.

don't kid yourself that solar energy is free.
you invest a fair bit of money into it and this equipment has a limited life before it will need replacing or regularly repairing.

Granted that in all likelihood you would be unlucky to have to repair or replace anything in the first 10 years but you do have to factor in the fact that if you spend 10K on solar panels and equipment to run it then for the first decade the electricity that it produces costs you £1000 per year and after that it is indeed free.

For someone who has an average day usage and very little night time usage, the savings can be Big.
for working families who use most of their power at night, the payback from feeding in will not cover the evening and night time use.

Battery storage is a good idea and the payback when incorporated with a low night rate can be a big saver if the usage pattern is right. if you have a big enough battery to cover your daytime use then all your power is bought at around 7p to 8p

however be cautious with the sales people because it is not unheard of for them to sell solar to you showing how much you can save and then on top of that, sell battery storage showing how much it can save on top of that.

if your usage profile suits it then great but for many, they will fail to mention that the solar generated in the day doesn't offset buying power at say 30p per unit and the spare going into your battery but in fact just offsets the amount you will have to charge overnight and therefore is offsetting power you would have to buy at night at say 7p.

at 7p per kwh it is hard to break even with a solar system unless it lasts for 15 to 20 years with no issues.

I am not anti solar or anti battery storage, they are both great but it is so important to get the right solution for what your household power needs are. if you don't, then the only person making money out of it is the guy that sold it to you.

Good post. Maintenance costs can negate energy savings to the point installation and maintenance costs it is not worth it overall. It means getting a decent system with quality install and quality equipment that lasts.

The underpinning point is get as much from the solar as possible at all times.

 

[7029 dave]

Read again what the system was. It was well explained, and understand it.

Don't need to read again the picture tells me what I need. BTW your a bit touchy about solar, it's old hat these days and a waste of money