DEA / EPC Accreditation - Training, Costs, Providers etc

[whinmoor]

I thought it might be useful to have a thread dedicated to this subject away from the main forum. It seems like a few of us are thinking about becoming DEAs so it might be useful if we could share experiences of training providers, facilities, the course itself, costs, software, ongoing support and so on. It may be once you have qualified, a training provider will offer a discount for a second person and we could share referral codes/fees. I will go first in explaining my situation and thinking:

I am looking at becoming the accredited DEA for my small company. Having to rely on an outsider isn’t great and there’s always the risk he will do the dirty on you. I am looking at using Stroma for my training as they are reasonably local to me – Castleford, Yorkshire. Their website says the course lasts 3 days and costs £750 (plus VAT). You then have to take an ABBE exam costing £290 + £90. So, the total cost seems to be £1130. You then have to pay a small amount (about £5-£6) to “lodge” each EPC but that’s not critical as we’d only be doing a handful each month.

Are other people thinking along similar lines or does someone have a masterplan I've missed?

 

[SRE]

Mmm well you all got me thinking about this even though I'd decided to use a local guy to do it.

I've just been in touch with a company who does online epc training for £395. He reckons they don't do the exam anymore (which I'm sure can't be right) just the portfolio of 5 properties for assessment and it only takes 30 mins to do the EPC + the office time to add it to the software and generate the certificate. It is 4 years since I did my training so it could have changed - I guess we maybe need to ask someone who's trained recently - maybe MEP?? My background is energy efficiency so I'm happy to do it online - might not be an option for others, but at that price it's possibly worth me doing.

My reservations are around what you used to have to do to get the EPC - I'll list what I can remember it might help others to decide if it's for them or not.

For the property:
age, type of build, construction of walls & roof,
For each elevation:
Height to eaves, width, size of windows, size of doors, loft construction and insulation
For each room:
width, depth & height of walls, construction of internal walls, size of internal doors, ceiling construction
Heating:
Specific boiler, heating controls, boiler interlock, secondary heating, ventilation
Lighting
% of low energy lights

I think that's it :-( I remember why I didn't like doing it now ....

I hope it's been simplified :hurray:

 

[SolarCity]

Did I hear something about the EPC rating having to come from a third party?

 

[SRE]

DECC has clarified - it can come from the installer FITs Frequently Asked Questions - Department of Energy and Climate Change
seems like there's a conflict but I'm not arguing. I thought the Green Deal had to be seperate and the EPC would be the same.

 

[Energetic]

We looked at doing the training but as there was such a rush to get qualifications a few years ago for the HIP we can get them done by a local guy for £50. Given the costs of accreditation and the hassle of doing the EPC we're inclined to outsource it.

There's also the problem of the customer thinking that you might be adding to the price by recommending things that need not be done, which is why we'll recommend a local spark for a board change if required rather than add it to a PV quote. For a small company like ours it seems the easiest option. That said we are not an electrical contractor but a renewables firm and for the last year we've wanted to stick to PV and keep the distractions to a minimum.

 

[whinmoor]

I'm thinking about going to Ecobuild next month. It may be possible to negotiate a deal with a rep for a discount. I know Stroma will have a stand there. It is, however, cutting it a bit fine in terms of getting the qualification before early April.

 

[SRE]

Watch the timeline - it takes a while to ge the portfolio of properties pulled together and when you do if you wait until mid March there could be a mad rush for everyone to get theirs in. I'm going to make my decision next week and get on with it.

 

[morpheus75]

Same as OP i have been looking into it. Im a small company and being careful on having the dirty done by external assessors have enrolled onto the course offered by PPL york. Im based in Leeds. A tad on the expensive side but a years membership with a body, software provided but importantly i dont have to hunt for my portfolio properties as they source them for you. Total 6 day course with 2 days onsite doing assessment. I reckon the quickest way to register as assessor. Im on the course 19 march


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[whinmoor]

Could you tell us the cost Morpheus? The price on their website is £1920 (incl VAT). Did you manage to bag a discount? The course looks comprehensive but rather more expensive than Stroma.

 

[morpheus75]

Thats what i paid. On balance £1100ish is the going price for a few places and this is £1600 both plus vat but for the extras i thought it was worth it. Trying to find properties that fall into the required bands and type to submit in your portfolio would take a while to do and they have done that for you. Hence why i went with them


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[TedM]

If anyone wants to dabble to see what is involved you can download the SAP2009 software from Stroma free of charge.

Stroma - FSAP Software | Certification - Energy Assessment

You have to register a few details and they send you a link by email to get the software.

Where they ask:

Who are you accredited with? *

just select 'None'.

 

[whinmoor]

Noticed in the small print on the PPL website:

"ATTENTION!! - UP TO 50% OFF COURSE FEES available for eligible businesses and sole traders located in the Yorkshire and Humber region"

Did you enquire about this, Morpheus?

 

[SRE]

Whinmoor have you tried the Stroma software - it's even worse than I remember!

 

[whinmoor]

No, I haven't. I don't have much experience with this kind of thing actually. I'm sure I'll be the one wearing the dunce's hat on whichever course I attend! I've never even studied an EPC in much detail so I'm sure I'll be miles behind guys like you on the course who've been there, seen it, done it but not got the right T-shirt!

I'm visiting a pal over the weekend who moved house last year so I will ask if I can see his EPC. Hope I can keep my eyes open long enough to read it cos I expect it's full of drivel and mostly stating the bl***y obvious.

 

[SRE]

Its not difficult - just time consuming, best demonstrated by trying the demo. If you can find 5 minutes I'd really recommend it

 

[whinmoor]

I should be able to cope. I hope I can count a few lightbulbs! Not sure what's going to happen when I get to 10 and run out of fingers though.

 

[morpheus75]

I didnt see that discount but will be calling them on monday


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[Markc]

I'm not looking forward to funding another £2K into this and then not needing it (may be) in 12 months time! I think I will see how the land lies and use an independent contracted direct to the client. IF it looks like it's going to work then I will invest in it, but until that time I will keep hold of my cash.

 

[morpheus75]

Hopefully i can offer my services to members on here without any dirty tactics, once i have done the course


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[whinmoor]

I'm not looking forward to funding another £2K into this and then not needing it (may be) in 12 months time! I think I will see how the land lies and use an independent contracted direct to the client. IF it looks like it's going to work then I will invest in it, but until that time I will keep hold of my cash.

True - it may be throwing good money after bad. But, it may give a competitive advantage over rivals who can't offer EPCs as an inclusive service. That's the point of this thread - to debate the pros and cons and share experiences. I may have saved Morpheus a few quid by pointing out the possible discount.

Maybe others can refer each other to training providers and share savings somehow (it may require some creative thinking about the exact nature of our "working relationships" depending on the terms of the deal!). I think these training companies have flexibility on pricing and paying the advertised "list price" isn't always necessary. They are operating in a competitive market as well.

 

[whinmoor]

@ Morpheus - If they won't give you a discount, ask if you can bring a "colleague" with you for free. I'd be happy to fulfil that role and chuck you a grand or so for the privilege! If not, I'd guess you're still in your 7-day cooling off period and you know Stroma down the road in Castleford have a great reputation and training facilities ;-)

 

[morpheus75]

Thanks. Im going to call them on monday. I just saw that discount today on the webpage. Dont know how i missed that yesterday!!


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[Markc]

I'm certain you are right and being able to offer a one stop shop is a good idea. I just feel I want to see how PV is going to go from April then July. If. EPC can be obtained for a matter of £30-£40 then I will be some time on our numbers of PV jobs to justify £2K. And the big guys, I think, will be throwing EPC's about for nothing anyway and probably at a D regardless.

Does the "inspector" have to be the assesor? If not someone on here could make a fortune on a new business venture. If we know what to do and forward the information on and that person then produces the report for a fee. Idea?

 

[SRE]

Like structural reports? The same thing had crossed my mind but I think the person issuing the certificate has to have visited the property. Would quite like to be proved wrong ;-) could solve a problem for a lot of people.

 

[whinmoor]

Does the "inspector" have to be the assesor? If not someone on here could make a fortune on a new business venture. If we know what to do and forward the information on and that person then produces the report for a fee. Idea?

I presume the DEA signing off the EPC will have to sign a disclaimer that they have personally inspected the property. It'd be like signed off an electrical installation where I presume most wouldn't be prepared to accept liability for jobs they hadn't at least seen. This may, at least, have more scope for "manoeuvres" because the principle focus is not safety.

 

[Markc]

Just thinking aloud........say we chip in to fund a n other to take the course and exam etc. Then we as a group have set up a company where we all own shares or similar send in the information as required including pictures etc etc. report is produced and returned via email or own website. As we would all own a share we would all be working for the company and so reduce the abuse aspect. Could be a cooperative set up. A fee for a n others time may be. Fairly secure and as we are all in the same boat it spreads the cost. For example if a report could be done in say ten minutes (apologises as I have no idea what is involved) and a fee of £10 is applied and paid via PayPal? This could cover admin costs if we all did it. Would this then be acceptable as we would all be working on paper for the company and be train (in house) to conduct a inspection?

Thoughts......

 

[whinmoor]

This may be a bit tricky to pull off. Not wishing to put a dampner on it, but I think there must be an EPC national register or something and it would look rather suss if the marvellous and mysterious Mr A.N.Other keeps popping up all over the country perfoming dozens of inspections a day!

 

[Markc]

I understand the thinking however this isn't anything about safety. Say there was a company set up solely to do EPC's every single person in the field would have to have the qualification? Or could they be trained to report back to a person who holds the certificate? After all it isn't the assessment that requires the cert it's the understanding of the information and the assessment of this information. It works like this in many other things. I would find it hard to believe every person inspecting needs the qualification. We are a two man band so this would mean if we both continued in surveying for PV we would both need a EPC qualification.

I feel it would be possible.

 

[morpheus75]

I understand where you are coming from here. Anyone can measure a room count windows etc so if a form was issued out and this info recorded then passed onto the qualified person to compile then why not have a n other doing all the reports. I havent done the course yet but if someone who conducts epc or done the course shed some light?


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[whinmoor]

I'm not sure to be perfectly honest. I suspect it's the DEA who has to do the inspection and it has to be recorded under his/her name. It would probably be acceptable for the DEA to get the data inputted by a different person (e.g. a secretary) into the official register but it would be the DEA's name and registration number on the certificate.

I had a go with the Stroma software earlier. As a novice, I found it pretty tricky to operate in truth. For example, there were about 6 zillion boilers to choose from and if you go into a property where the boiler simply says "Worcester Bosch" or "Vaillant" on it and the owner doesn't have the paperwork, it could take ages to work out exactly which model you're looking at.

 

[whinmoor]

Maybe this answers our question?


Q: What is a DEA?
A: An Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) in England & Wales can only be completed by a qualified Domestic Energy Assessor (DEA) who is accredited with a government approved Accreditation Scheme.
A DEA will inspect the property and collect all the necessary information from which an EPC is prepared and made available.


GoEco Energy Surveyors

 

[SRE]

I was surveying yesterday and it brought it all back into focus. Our customers wanted to ask so many questions (all relevant) about the systems that by the time we'd covered that and the info needed for the structural survey it would have been a) longer than is polite to have spent in the customer's house and b) over the REAL allocated time.

So it's either £50 for another visit from the DEA or another visit from us to collect the data - coupled with the time it takes to input the data once you've got it I'm tipping back towards getting someone else to do the legwork, but using EST for an indicator of EPC.

For those who like me are considering paying the £50 -
when will you get the EPC done,
will you charge the customer if their house doesn't meet the band d?
Has anyone found an insulation company who doesn't do solar to send referrals to?
Are you changing your terms and conditions to reflect the need for the EPC band d and the cost of the EPC if the band isn't met?
If Real doesn't provide a template does anyone want to share the cost of having a legal document drawn up?

 

[MorganPVI]

Not properly looked into it, but during a solar survey it would be easy enough to make a quick assesement for a ball park? Then send in the EPC dude when the contracts are signed.

We will probably charge the customer £50 if they do not proceed with the quote due to ecessive cost of other inprovements
I have a contact to get any cavity wall insulation or loft done easily in the south.
Yes there will have to updated T&Cs - not that there is any point due to sales of goods act.
I'm tempted to say yes, but not sure if it would be enforceable

 

[JulianC]

Here are my thoughts today, which may differ from those yesterday and tomorrow.

when will you get the EPC done
Ideally, after quoting for PV and the customer has expressed interest in giving me their money. No point creating extra work if customer isn't going to order from me. However, depending on the customer, property and my mood at any given moment in time, I would expect things to be quite fluid. Some may get done early on, some later. Think, initially at least, I will be judging each case as it comes.

will you charge the customer if their house doesn't meet the band d?
I will charge the customer regardless and will offer a full refund of the fee if they subsequently give me their money for a PV system. It's their EPC, they need it, not me. I expect that they will need educating in this respect but I'm buggered if I'm shelling out 50 quid a time for the privilege of quoting someone!

Has anyone found an insulation company who doesn't do solar to send referrals to?
Plenty of local ones so don't see that as a problem for us. Will do loft insulation ourselves, if that's all it needs.

Are you changing your terms and conditions to reflect the need for the EPC band d and the cost of the EPC if the band isn't met?
Will be giving it some thought soon

 

[infinity]

Ive been offfered a course at epctraining.net for £995, but they are adamant there is no exam required or portfolio. To be able to carry out domestic EPC's,

Is this true?

 

[SRE]

Well I've been told no exam - quoted £395 or £495 for online training but need portfolio of 5 properties. The 5 properties all have to be different - eg different age, build etc but their assessment will be turned round in a couple of days.

 

[infinity]

So if i do not do an exam, or a portfolio, can i be a qualified DEA and carry out the EPC'?

 

[morpheus75]

All the courses i have enquired about say that 5 property portfolio plus an exam at your local test centre to get the DEA quals


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[TedM]

See http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pdf/domesticenergyassessor.pdf and http://www.assetskills.org/nmsruntime/saveasdialog.aspx?lID=423&sID=439 and
BRE: BRE Global Domestic Energy Assessor Accreditation Scheme

Don't forget that energy assessors come in the domestic (DEA) and non-domestic (NDEA) flavours.

 

[SRE]

Thanks Ted - looks like the exam is needed.

Nice tweet to Mr Barking earlier