Determined to fix it myself but need a little help...

[jimbobuk]

Hi guys,
Please excuse the fact that this may be quite long-winded but I'm stuck with what the problem is so Id rather be thorough in describing it.

So, my girlfriend hit the light switch this morning and all the lights went out in the flat. Also the switch sort of broke, like it wouldn't either click on or off anymore. I was at work at the time so I figured it was just the trip switch turning off in the cupboard (Pic of it here: http://tinyurl.com/37zx3hb) and all I had to do was flick it back on when I got home.

Well, when I tried the mcb switch for 'lighting' it wouldn't stay up. It would just spark behind it and automatically flick back to off (pic here: http://tinyurl.com/2bmvr4q).

So, I took all the bulbs out and unscrewed the switch in the hall to see if there was any burn marks on back, and there was, so I unscrewed the yellow wire from the switch, just to see if disconnecting some of it would take it off the circuit. It worked and allowed the mcb switch to stay on. BUT, when I turned the other switch on in the hall, it blew just like the other, and gave the same affect to the mcb switch.

Now, I've removed the yellow wire from both switches the mcb switch stays on and the rest of the flat is happy. Here is a picture of the back of both light switches in the hall: First Switch to blow: http://tinyurl.com/2vbkbe2 Second switch to blow: http://tinyurl.com/2cwet6s.

Im determined to fix it myself but i'm stuck. Does anybody have an idea of what it might be?

Any advise would be so appreciated

jx

 

[rocker]

The yellow is more than likely your 'common' conductor on a 2 way lighting circuit. If everything works when it's disconnected then probably it's because it has become compromised in some way. Have you put up any pictures lately?

I know you want to do this yourself, but fault finding like this requires usually expensive equipment and experience. You could get yourself or others seriously hurt or worse by persevering yourself. I would seriously recommend getting an electrician registered with a 'part p' organisation to have a look at it for you. And also, ensure there are no live conductors accessible.

 

[accordfire]

Hi guys,
Please excuse the fact that this may be quite long-winded but I'm stuck with what the problem is so Id rather be thorough in describing it.

So, my girlfriend hit the light switch this morning and all the lights went out in the flat. Also the switch sort of broke, like it wouldn't either click on or off anymore. I was at work at the time so I figured it was just the trip switch turning off in the cupboard (Pic of it here: http://tinyurl.com/37zx3hb) and all I had to do was flick it back on when I got home.

Well, when I tried the mcb switch for 'lighting' it wouldn't stay up. It would just spark behind it and automatically flick back to off (pic here: http://tinyurl.com/2bmvr4q).

So, I took all the bulbs out and unscrewed the switch in the hall to see if there was any burn marks on back, and there was, so I unscrewed the yellow wire from the switch, just to see if disconnecting some of it would take it off the circuit. It worked and allowed the mcb switch to stay on. BUT, when I turned the other switch on in the hall, it blew just like the other, and gave the same affect to the mcb switch.

Now, I've removed the yellow wire from both switches the mcb switch stays on and the rest of the flat is happy. Here is a picture of the back of both light switches in the hall: First Switch to blow: http://tinyurl.com/2vbkbe2 Second switch to blow: http://tinyurl.com/2cwet6s.

Im determined to fix it myself but i'm stuck. Does anybody have an idea of what it might be?

Any advise would be so appreciated

jx

Well, first up - that pic of switch 2 - the one with half of Batt Cables stock in it, needs ripping out and doing properly.

I HATE seeing neutrals in switch enclosures. Absolutely HATE it.

However, all that said - the yellows you've disconnected are only strappers for the two way switching.

You've possibly got a dead short across all terminals in the switch your GF was practicing her Schwarzenegger on.....

If it isn't "switching" any more - i.e. the rocker is either very stiff, or isn't "clicking" from one position to the next, it needs replacing. That's a one gang, two sway switch.

Second, sorry to tell you, but taking the light bulbs out of their holders wouldn't have made any difference at all to the fault finding process.

Once you've replaced that with the power OFF, from your description of what happened, you've probably fixed your fault - but if not, best advice is to touch nothing else and get an electrician in.

Whilst two way switching isn't especially complex, it is very easy to make mistakes on, and worryingly, you have mixed colours in that second switch too, which makes it way too easy to make a mistake once you start messing around with wiring. The specific problem you have there is that you seem to have both blue neutrals AND a blue live switch wire (which isn't sheathed).

 

[ukpablo]

replace both switches with two way identical switches. thats what i would do without a tester to test ccts! turn off a CU and replace cables into same holes on new switches. then see if it works, at worst it will trip mcb again

 

[rocker]

Also, just out of interest, do you know when that consumer unit (the thing with the main switches is it) was fitted? I know it's a bit of a random question but it looks about the right age to be affected.... if it was installed between april 09 and around april/may 10 it may be part of a large recall..... if it was installed between these times 'd contact the person who installed it, just in case.

 

[telectrix]

honestly, get a qualified electrician in. not only do you have exposed copper on a live conductor, the actual switch plate does not appear to be earthed either. better to spend £40 or £50 quid than have a tragedy.

 

[jibjob]

I HATE seeing neutrals in switch enclosures. Absolutely HATE it.

Why is that then?

 

[telectrix]

Also, just out of interest, do you know when that consumer unit (the thing with the main switches is it) was fitted? I know it's a bit of a random question but it looks about the right age to be affected.... if it was installed between april 09 and around april/may 10 it may be part of a large recall..... if it was installed between these times 'd contact the person who installed it, just in case.

or any qualified electrician can check the breakers and replace if necessary

 

[Amp David]

Hope the CU was fitted way before april 09 as it only looks like a split load to me - 16th edition?

 

[rocker]

ooh yea good point

 

[Amp David]

Saying that could of still been installed recently as they are still available.

 

[telectrix]

Hope the CU was fitted way before april 09 as it only looks like a split load to me - 16th edition?

only just spotted that myself. red mcb numbers, should be green if rcd protected.

 

[Amp David]

Jimbobuk if you give your location someone here may come to your help

 

[jimbobuk]

Jimbobuk if you give your location someone here may come to your help

Guys,
thank you so much for your quick replies. I'm actaully quite shocked at how quickly you all got back to me. I live London, battersea. If anyone is near me and would be kind enough to help, that would be amazing (obviously not for free).

In regards to the unit on the cupboard, this flat is a new build and has been up for almost 5yrs now. If you like any other information on it, I'd be happy to get it.

As for the wiring, like I said, it's a new build and from my experience with this building, they've cur corners wherever they could. So, please don't assume I made a shoddy mess I'd it

anyway, if anybody is in this area and would like to help, let me know and we can have a chat.

Cheers guys
jimbobukp

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Yes,why is that?.....whats the thinking?

 

[accordfire]

Yes,why is that?.....whats the thinking?

Sorry guys - missed the first post of this "Why's that then" - so for both

Just a pet peeve really - the propensity for danger is higher, the use of crappy choc block in a switch enclosure, the increase in fault possibilities, and the fact that switch enclosures (generally) aren't designed to terminate neutral conductors.

I just find it kinda sloppy when there are other, better ways of dealing with the neutral conductor in a lighting circuit.

As I say, really personal preference, just don't think it's good practice to have conductors other than those being switched (and CPC, obviously) in the enclosure.

 

[telectrix]

i see your point , Bill, but how may times have we been to fit, say, a porch light, and found the only way to get a neutral is to access the hall light, entailing cutting holes in ceiling or weetabix floor, after moveng beds etc., lifting bedroom carpet, when it would be so much easier if there were a neutral in the hall light switch. just drill out and replace switch with 2 gang.

 

[accordfire]

i see your point , Bill, but how may times have we been to fit, say, a porch light, and found the only way to get a neutral is to access the hall light, entailing cutting holes in ceiling or weetabix floor, after moveng beds etc., lifting bedroom carpet, when it would be so much easier if there were a neutral in the hall light switch. just drill out and replace switch with 2 gang.

Take your point totally - and yes, it is a case where a neutral in the switch enclosure would be handy.

I've nothing against the theory of neutrals in switch enclosures, I just wish that instead of some of the other pointless reg changes made, someone would stop and say "hang on - why don't we make all switches double pole, or why don't we ensure back boxes for plate switches, etc., have a proper termination for a neutral conductor.

I think the point was made all the more obvious to me given the mixed colours in that switch enclosure - old coloured 3&E and new coloured T&E at least, from memory - that put an unsheathed blue switched live in there, and blue neutrals...

Add to that someone, with respect, who doesn't know the difference, but does know we usually claim "colour to colour" as a standard replacement method, and we have trouble.

Thing is, we all know guys, including ourselves at the end of a long week, who would look at that in a situation where someone has helpfully put the switched live blue in with all the other blue neutrals and not see the fault.

In that particular case, it bothered me a bit - I'd have made sure there was a JB somewhere outside of that switch enclosure as it looks to me as though they effectively did the three plate in the switch, rather than a fitting.

I know that's getting away from the "neutrals in the switch" discussion, just observations while I was on that switch - in principle, I guess I'm just against connections that don't need to be there, especially when they're terminated in biscuit block. And, yes, I know Wagos weren't around then too

No easy answer - and yes, there are advantages to neutrals in switch enclosures, just wish the regs would catch up to the practice, and we either made it standard that there's a neutral present or not - and if there is, that manufacturers start providing a proper terminal either on the back box, or on the switch for them.

Maybe I'm just getting old, not getting enough, or feeling really picky this week lol!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Good points,we are all entitled to take whatever view we like.....Personally I feel there are huge advantages in looping feeds to switches,with a single cable out to the lights. One or at worst two cables at the light,no joint boxes...all connections accessible...simples.

 

[Sav]

Hi all,
Apparently there is a new switch from hager (lightswitch), that has a slot for the neutrals to fit in as well.
Not bad I say, as its should be easier for all those you feed the switch as oposed to the ceiling rose.
Check it out.
Best regards,
Sav

 

[Amp David]

Yes seen that Hager switch in PE mag a couple of months back

 

[JulianC]

I'm more interested in finding out what the hell a 'Kigchen' is (see first picture). All this talk of neutrals and safety vs. convenience is all very well but there is simply no excuse for bad spellink on sticky labels. Reminds me of those Kewtech EIC's I've got that ask for the RCD "Residential" Current.



I'll get me coat...

 

[Sav]

Yeah David,

Its in the Nov issue.

What do you think ??

Sav

 

[robskiing]

I used to share exactly the same views as accordfire no no for neutrals at switches but with the birth of downlighters it is a lot easier to have just a pair of twins to connect at each downlight i just install deeper back boxes for the switches and fix the connector to the back box much easier than three plate

 

[Amp David]

Yeah David,

Its in the Nov issue.

What do you think ??

Sav

Looks like a good idea to me, frees up a bit of space. Just use push fit Wagos myself tho

 

[Sav]

Looks like a good idea to me, frees up a bit of space. Just use push fit Wagos myself tho

Dito mate !!

 

[dixon9]

Sorry guys - missed the first post of this "Why's that then" - so for both

Just a pet peeve really - the propensity for danger is higher, the use of crappy choc block in a switch enclosure, the increase in fault possibilities, and the fact that switch enclosures (generally) aren't designed to terminate neutral conductors.

I just find it kinda sloppy when there are other, better ways of dealing with the neutral conductor in a lighting circuit.

As I say, really personal preference, just don't think it's good practice to have conductors other than those being switched (and CPC, obviously) in the enclosure.

Well, wago type connectors are fully insulated unlike chocbloc...and Hagar now do a switch with a spare terminal to terminate neutrals.

 

[accordfire]

Well, wago type connectors are fully insulated unlike chocbloc...and Hagar now do a switch with a spare terminal to terminate neutrals.

Yup true. Sadly Wagos haven't been around too long - but they are a far better solution that choc block. Better still would be, like Hager, if all manufacturers put a neutral terminal in place.

It is a personal opinion, don't get me wrong - just one of those bug bear things we all have.

 

[stuylangford]

Good points,we are all entitled to take whatever view we like.....Personally I feel there are huge advantages in looping feeds to switches,with a single cable out to the lights. One or at worst two cables at the light,no joint boxes...all connections accessible...simples.

totally agree mate much easier than hanging off steps trying to wire jb`s

 

[jimbobuk]

Sorry guys,
Not wanting to disrupt the chat but just wanted to throw in my request again - - Is there anyone living near London SW8 who would be willing to pop round and help with our problem?
jimbob

 

[accordfire]

Sorry guys,
Not wanting to disrupt the chat but just wanted to throw in my request again - - Is there anyone living near London SW8 who would be willing to pop round and help with our problem?
jimbob

Might be better to start a new thread with something like "Visit Required SW8" in the subject line - there's a lot of guys out there who might not have read this post.

If you get no luck - I *may* be in Belgravia this coming week, subject to customer figuring out we need keys to get in! Sure we can arrange something at modest fees if nobody else closer takes you up.