DIY enthusiasts and electrical work.

[Pete999]

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

 

[Toneyz]

No not really

Well, mildly surprised then.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Pretty relaxed about DIY, its just un-fortunate that electrics look easy.
However, i dont participate in educating DIYs on this forum, usually DIYers who know me ring me up and i explain over the phone, last one was for a light pendant that had some strange colours. If i know the person trying to do the work i will help as i know they should still be alive by the end of the day, cannot get that same feeling on a forum.

 

[Octopus]

Is it typical for an electrician to expect the customer to identify and source their own power sockets, light switches etc? Most people would not have known where to start looking and if there was a ban on buying such components as a private individual I would have had a serious problem.

Hum .......... I've just had a customer specify she wanted the same switches as per the ones being installed by the spark doing all the work except the bathroom

I looked at one and didn't recognise the make - so I asked the customer to ask the "other" spark where he buys them from ..... no information received ......

So I called the manufacturer, who gave me 2 local stockists - so I visited both - and neither have stock - and both would levy me with a "carriage" charge to get them

My time well and truly wasted.

So I fitted 2 standard white switches .....

So back to your point ........... yes, if you wanted a specific make, I would ask you to get them before 1st fix .....

if you said you wanted shiny chrome (or similar) and didn't specific a make / model I would get them for you and obviously charge as they are more costs ................

But beware.......... sheds typically only supply the "volume" sales lines so you can come unstuck choosing from such suppliers

As a last thought, as you bought your kitchen from a "shed" the sub contractors are typically on fixed prices so any messing around can't be done

 

[Dillb]

Silly question to everyone..... Is this Nicec just making up their own certs?
I don't see this cert in Appendix 6 of BS7671..

Its just like their own version of the on site guide, claiming its for installations upto 100amp, I never realised that they changed once you went over that!

NICEIC & ELECSA Site Guide <100A | 18th Edition - https://www.shop.niceic.com/site-guide-electrical-installations-18th-edition

 

[Deuce]

What about those of us that are not strictly diy'ers, just not qualified full time sparks?

I work in water displays/features/special FX. As such I'm involved in a lot of automation, in addition to designing and building panels up to distribute the on site supply to all the components. I do the work at our workshop as I need to test, change, test again, change again.. when I'm happy all the mains connections are stopped back out by me and re-instated by a spark, and the kit certified by them.

Obviously most diy'ers posting questions on here are not spending their days programming PLC's or configuring industrial motor inverters. But I ask questions, sometimes very basic ones, not because I don't understand the principal of how to do something safely, but because I want to set out on the right side of the regulations. And only a professional spark is connected enough with the world of ever changing regs to be upto date.

The idea of this forum saying only sparks can discuss method with each other, or stores should only sell to qualified people, would seem a little restrictive to those in a grey area such as myself. I do appreciate that giving advice to a real novice can be dangerous. The problem is that witholding advice can be dangerous too. Also, just plain unhelpful. Seems the forum could just ask members to state if they're qualified or not and if not, underline the fact that any advice is for information purposes only etc.

 

[Toneyz]

What about those of us that are not strictly diy'ers, just not qualified full time sparks?

I work in water displays/features/special FX. As such I'm involved in a lot of automation, in addition to designing and building panels up to distribute the on site supply to all the components. I do the work at our workshop as I need to test, change, test again, change again.. when I'm happy all the mains connections are stopped back out by me and re-instated by a spark, and the kit certified by them.

Obviously most diy'ers posting questions on here are not spending their days programming PLC's or configuring industrial motor inverters. But I ask questions, sometimes very basic ones, not because I don't understand the principal of how to do something safely, but because I want to set out on the right side of the regulations. And only a professional spark is connected enough with the world of ever changing regs to be upto date.

The idea of this forum saying only sparks can discuss method with each other, or stores should only sell to qualified people, would seem a little restrictive to those in a grey area such as myself. I do appreciate that giving advice to a real novice can be dangerous. The problem is that witholding advice can be dangerous too. Also, just plain unhelpful. Seems the forum could just ask members to state if they're qualified or not and if not, underline the fact that any advice is for information purposes only etc.

That's why people such as Pete999 keep going on regarding filling in of members profiles so that members can engage with them at the appropriate level.

 

[Deuce]

That's why people such as Pete999 keep going on regarding filling in of members profiles so that members can engage with them at the appropriate level.

It does seem a good idea. But in general this forum just has to make clear that advice is just 'opinion' and that anyone reading it should consider that all liability for their work is ultimately their own.

So long as that's done, the qualified sparks can simply choose to offer their input on whatever basis they feel is best. Most people do like to be helpful so long as they're reasonably protected from being blamed for someone else's general incompetence!

 

[oracle]

Please tell me if you think that I am wrong, but if you can legally buy electrical equipment and install it in your own home, without any experience, training, testing, certification or building notification there is something seriously wrong?

Why not make the Regs statutory, with clear definitions of training and skill levels required for domestic electrical work, and heavy penalties for non compliance.

Part P was supposed to take care of this but is clearly failing to do so, being either disregarded or unknown by the DIY'ers

 

[Deuce]

Please tell me if you think that I am wrong, but if you can legally buy electrical equipment and install it in your own home, without any experience, training, testing, certification or building notification there is something seriously wrong?

I suppose the two most common things a diy'er might do is swap a light fitting or or switch/socket on a like for like basis. And whilst I accept people sometimes get this simple task wrong... The fact is that for anyone prepared to pay attention and do a little research it is a task that they can easily do correctly.

For any functioning human with shoe lace tying abilities, the task of checking for dead, and swapping wires neatly and making a good like for like connection just isn't such a challenge that they need to pay for professional help imo.

I accept that sometimes a person thinks 'well changing a light was easy so all electrical work is simple', and that tends to take people down a dangerous path...

Another thing to bear in mind is that as professionals you're far more likely to see the minority DIY work that goes wrong, not the majority that is fine.

It's also makes me a little said that the general public are becoming less and less practicly skilled, to the point that half my good friends would probably scratch their head if handed a Rawl plug!! So in the end you will probably get your wish, regulation inevitably expands. But for me, it just feels sad to further discourage home owners from developing their own basic skillset to carry out general maintenance.

One interesting consideration is that in a world where only a qualified spark can swap a light fitting, it would also likely be the case that only a qualified plumber can mend a cistern or fit a new washing machine. Would the sparks enjoy handing over their money to a plumber for a task virtually all could quite competently achieve in minutes themselves?

 

[Pete999]

I suppose the two most common things a diy'er might do is swap a light fitting or or switch/socket on a like for like basis. And whilst I accept people sometimes get this simple task wrong... The fact is that for anyone prepared to pay attention and do a little research it is a task that they can easily do correctly.

For any functioning human with shoe lace tying abilities, the task of checking for dead, and swapping wires neatly and making a good like for like connection just isn't such a challenge that they need to pay for professional help imo.

I accept that sometimes a person thinks 'well changing a light was easy so all electrical work is simple', and that tends to take people down a dangerous path...

Another thing to bear in mind is that as professionals you're far more likely to see the minority DIY work that goes wrong, not the majority that is fine.

It's also makes me a little said that the general public are becoming less and less practicly skilled, to the point that half my good friends would probably scratch their head if handed a Rawl plug!! So in the end you will probably get your wish, regulation inevitably expands. But for me, it just feels sad to further discourage home owners from developing their own basic skillset to carry out general maintenance.

One interesting consideration is that in a world where only a qualified spark can swap a light fitting, it would also likely be the case that only a qualified plumber can mend a cistern or fit a new washing machine. Would the sparks enjoy handing over their money to a plumber for a task virtually all could quite competently achieve in minutes themselves?

You make some good points Mate, can I refer to your first paragraph, how many time have we seen on this Forum alone, a DIYer has come on with "help, I have just bought this light from wherever, and there are to many wires at the ceiling, how do I connect it up"
Just a sample of why things like this should be left to a professional and as for an Electrician connecting the water to a washing machine, what's wrong with that? nothing an Electrician will have seen how to do that many, many times, after all they are Tradesmen aren't they? well most are in my experience.
What is wrong is for someone with no practical experience attempting work that may seem like a simple operation, only to louse it up, to the point where it becomes dangerous. I have been to many Houses, big posh jobs, where Mr and Mrs Moneybags, who probably work in the city, earning Gazillions, don't own even a basic tool kit, they employ someone to do jobs for them, after all would you feel happy trying to do their job?

 

[Spoon]

One interesting consideration is that in a world where only a qualified spark can swap a light fitting, it would also likely be the case that only a qualified plumber can mend a cistern or fit a new washing machine. Would the sparks enjoy handing over their money to a plumber for a task virtually all could quite competently achieve in minutes themselves?

Totally agree with this...

 

[Deuce]

You make some good points Mate, can I refer to your first paragraph, how many time have we seen on this Forum alone, a DIYer has come on with "help, I have just bought this light from wherever, and there are to many wires at the ceiling, how do I connect it up"
Just a sample of why things like this should be left to a professional and as for an Electrician connecting the water to a washing machine, what's wrong with that? nothing an Electrician will have seen how to do that many, many times, after all they are Tradesmen aren't they? well most are in my experience.
What is wrong is for someone with no practical experience attempting work that may seem like a simple operation, only to louse it up, to the point where it becomes dangerous. I have been to many Houses, big posh jobs, where Mr and Mrs Moneybags, who probably work in the city, earning Gazillions, don't own even a basic tool kit, they employ someone to do jobs for them, after all would you feel happy trying to do their job?

All people that ask questions they could easily find an answer to themselves annoy me. And frankly anyone with that mindset is demonstrating just how impractical they are, so they should not do their own electrical work, I agree. I also agree that if I earned massive amounts of money I wouldn't do my own electrical work, I wouldn't even cook my own dinner or wash my clothes

But for the majority in between the two extremes of stupid and successful, lies a significant number of people that can do a dependable job of switching like for like electrical items in the same way they can put up a level curtain pole or troubleshoot a faulty cistern. Because with a little research and respect for method, these jobs are just not complex and need not be dangerous.

 

[oracle]

You make some good points Mate, can I refer to your first paragraph, how many time have we seen on this Forum alone, a DIYer has come on with "help, I have just bought this light from wherever, and there are to many wires at the ceiling, how do I connect it up"
Just a sample of why things like this should be left to a professional and as for an Electrician connecting the water to a washing machine, what's wrong with that? nothing an Electrician will have seen how to do that many, many times, after all they are Tradesmen aren't they? well most are in my experience.
What is wrong is for someone with no practical experience attempting work that may seem like a simple operation, only to louse it up, to the point where it becomes dangerous. I have been to many Houses, big posh jobs, where Mr and Mrs Moneybags, who probably work in the city, earning Gazillions, don't own even a basic tool kit, they employ someone to do jobs for them, after all would you feel happy trying to do their job?

 

[oracle]

Like for like replacement, while not notifiable, still needs a Minor Works certificate, certifying that the said work has been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with (current) BS7671.

Brings us back to "without any experience, training, testing, certification"

Even simple work can go wrong. A socket outlet with a neutral / earth swap will still function but any Class 1 appliance plugged into it can shock or kill.

So the DIY buys a nice new plug in socket tester to make sure it's connected right, but guess what ? His socket tester can't identify a neutral earth swap.

 

[telectrix]

Like for like replacement, while not notifiable, still needs a Minor Works certificate, certifying that the said work has been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with (current) BS7671.

Brings us back to "without any experience, training, testing, certification"

Even simple work can go wrong. A socket outlet with a neutral / earth swap will still function but any Class 1 appliance plugged into it can shock or kill.

So the DIY buys a nice new plug in socket tester to make sure it's connected right, but guess what ? His socket tester can't identify a neutral earth swap.

but the RCD will trip as soon as a load is applied.